[aron]

Originally Posted by Peter Debelak

...This discussion seems to get at the core of questions about how to practice "church." In particular, it invokes "authority" of somekind - at least insofar as "leaders" have some authority to "shape" the message heard by the congregation - be it through vetting other messengers or through sermon choices etc...

But then, from where does that authority derive? And who does it preside over? Is it a spiritual authority? If so, is it over those in the congregation? To what extent? If it is, in fact, a spiritual - God-given - authority, does it only preside over me, a member of the congregation, to the extent that I chose to be a part of that congregation? Does it cease to be a spiritual authority, insofar as I'm concerned, if I don't attend that congregation?

The kinds of nuts and bolts questions we bring to the table in the "local ground" discussions, we also have to be willing to take forward to other contexts.

Why is it okay for "leaders" to "craft" different congregations? That sets up this scenario (and I'm not inherently opposed to it):

There's a set of "leaders" - so designated by God - who set up and "craft" different types of congregations. Sure, they're not opposed to meeting with other congregations or believers. So, they're not inherently divisive. So then, as an individual believer, I have a palate of "choices."

For me, then, it is either the case that God has a PARTICULAR congregation and "leader" he wants me to be "in" and "under," or He leaves it to my free will to choose and will work to transform me in whatever context I choose. (keep in mind, this is from the perspective of an indiviual - I'm not taking a position on whether God Himself has a "preferred" congregation writ large).

The thing with this scenario is it suddenly redefines the believers experience by placing the "group experience" first. Your personal faith is defined vis a vis the group you do or do not join and the leaders who craft them. "Groups" become the default measuring stick and sharpening stone of one's faith. Even if not the "point," they do become the starting point. I'm not sure if I'm communicating this concern accurately... Ugh!

In any case, what does this say about "spiritual authority"? What does it say about the Biblical examples of Paul appointing elders or instructing others on the same? Are these chalked up to being "one time deals" since there is no present day Paul? We either have to take these seriously or contextualize the Bibilical pattern. If we choose to contextualize this particular Biblical pattern, should we in the same light be more scrutinizing of the other ways in which we cling to Bibilical patterns as definitive?

"When we believe into the Son/By His Spirit we are all made one". We are still a plurality, still different. But we are one. Just like the Father, the Son, and the Spirit. Different, but not different.

"You shall all be one, even as I am one with the Father." Different names, designations, but one. Plurality but not bedlam.

Satan, on the other hand, is pure plurality. "We are many" says the crowd of demons in the man there by the Gadarene lake-shore. Satan is confusion.

I think of all this because I saw a discussion on the Wikipedia site of the International Churches of Christ. "We are a theocracy, with God at the top". That was the ICOC organizational line.

Which brings me back to the question, Okay God is at the top, but who is #2? The leader of your movement? Kip McKean? Witness Lee? The current Pope? Then who is #3, #4, etc? This is the way of the Gentiles, and the door to lording it over one another. They say that without this order, and then they quote Paul or some such ("apostles and prophets and teachers"), that there will be confusion. But I say that this "order" is confusion. It is the Babylon building and it will of necessity be rent with division after confusion after turmoil after schism after rebellion.

Jesus talked about this at some length, and repeatedly: the way of the Gentiles vs the way of the disciples. And they seemingly just never got it. All the theology and high peak visions were just built on organizational sand.

If you want to be great, be the least. This is central to the message of Jesus. Yes God wants to build. But here is how God wants to put order into the universe. "With these, the least of My brothers"