[Mephibosheth2]

Originally Posted by aron

How about something like 400 OT allusions? How crazy is that? Crazy like a fox. Crazy like David in front of Abimalech.

You give the impression that John spent his time curled up in his study somewhere on Patmos with his rolls of parchment, and with his Scriptures, and with, let's not forget, of course, his ink-quill, and in WL's oft-repeated words, 'after many years of careful study', produced the Revelation. I'm sorry I always thought that he was in the 'spirit' on the day of the Lord when Jesus suddenly appeared to him and instructed him as to what to write to the seven churches in Asia-minor. Then later, after he saw a door opened in heaven a voice summoned him up, "to show him things...", and then he was immediately in the spirit and he could see 'the throne'. So, as far Revelation is concerned, John wrote exclusively of things that he was shown. I think it is erroneous to present his book as an exemplary work of scholarship (though it is an outstanding book) giving the idea that he spent much time and effort excavating the Scriptures, and finally lighted upon, and masterfully incorporated into his epistle, over '400 OT allusions'.

I also have a little trouble with your interpretation of the 'throne-room scene'. You took a leap of logic when you termed the 'seven spirits of God' as the 'seven angels'. Really? If you read the whole context of that throne-room scene you will notice that John took extra special care to mark out and distinguish all the different 'characters' in that scene. For example, in addition to the seven spirits burning before the throne (that you have so eloquently expounded upon), John writes of "...ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands.." ..of angels!

...that is...a mind-boggling..

10,000 multiplied by 10,000 = 100,000,000 angels
(100,000,000 angels) multiplied by (1000's of times) = X angels
(X angels) multiplied by (1000's of times) = XY angels
(XY angels) ad infinitum = billions upon billions upon billions of angels.

And where are all these billions of angels? John furnishes us with the answer...and states emphatically that they are "roundabout the throne". And there is no tension between this and the fact as stated in Matthew 18: "that in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven."

Furthermore, in addition to these myriad of angels, John identifies 24 seats, occupied by 24 elders with "crowns of gold" upon their heads. They, too, are "roundabout the throne". Then in addition to those elders, four beasts are pointed out by John. They likewise are "roundabout the throne" and they are also "in the midst of the throne". The four beasts are not alike and are described variously as being like a lion, a calf, and a flying eagle; the last beast is described as having "a face of a man". It has also been 'tentatively suggested' that these four creatures each represent four different races of advanced alien beings scattered throughout the universe, man being one of these races.

And then, lastly, John writes of seeing "a Lamb" standing not only in the midst of all these creatures, but also in the "midst of the throne". The lamb itself appeared as if it "had been slain" and had "seven horns" and "seven eyes" which are "the seven spirits of God"

Now, in view of this very vivid scene, let me ask you: by deliberately interchanging (albeit with good intentions) the Spirit of God for a created angel or angels, are you not running counter to what appears to be John's apparent purpose in his very studied, purposeful, and almost preemptive, attempt to draw circles around and rigidly distinguish each and every character in the scene in his portrayal of them to us; the unstated purpose being that we might not confuse the Spirit of God for an angel.

But note also, that he does intentionally mesh the identities of the Lamb and the seven spirits of God. Without a doubt, they are, as far as the picture is presented, and to all intents and purposes, and as much as I hate to use the term..."organically united"! John leaves us in no doubt at all that "the seven eyes of the lamb" are "the seven spirits of God"

Now, I'm not certain that you believe in the Trinitarian proposition of God; and certain earlier statements of yours would seem to suggest that, at least in part, you are making a half-hearted attempt to debunk that theory; but wouldn't the throne-room scene, that you keep coming back to for support of your alternative view, far from backing you up, actually render your new approach potentially heretical? Because, quite to the contrary, the throne-room scene would seem to argue for a co-existing and co-inhering God. Now, I am not calling you a heretic (yet): I have read all your posts and understand that you are trying to see something that the Lord is possibly beginning to open up to you. I have similar experiences. But I also understand that I need to be balanced; to be open to being checked; to being questioned and examined; to being sloooow; and occasionally, I might need to go back to the trash-can to retrieve something I previously had esteemed had no value...yup..

That being said, there does seem to be some great mystery surrounding that figure: the Angel of the Lord, or the Great Angel (even WL, believe it or not, conceded to that). You might also want to take note of the fact, for your own good, that there are certain places in Scripture that indicate that there are some spiritual matters that are best left well alone. There are things, Paul says, in the heavens so past human comprehension that it is simply not lawful for a mere man to speak of them. We are better insulated, it seems the lesson is, keeping to the clear and open revelation of Scripture. Moreover, in relation to this subject of 'angels', Paul, when describing the OT tabernacle and the Most Holy Place mentions, fleetingly and with almost reverential awe, the "cherubim of glory shadowing the mercy seat" (Heb 9:5). He confesses that he 'cannot' speak of them!...and simply moves on. Maybe you should keep digging, aron, or may be you should heed Paul's example and just stop, I don't know; but perhaps you might want to choose a different excavation spot to find your answers, the throne-room doesn't seem to be it. Perhaps the Lord is opening up something to you. From my experience, what you eventually find is rarely what you expect to find. How cool is the Lord?