[Olvin]

Originally Posted by Igzy

Okay, two things. Not unless it depersonalizes our relationship with God, turning God into more substance than Person. When that happens I think it's being taken too far, and I think Lee did that more often than not.

You then would also have to say the Jesus was taking it too far. He referred to Himself as bread 12 times in John, HE said, "unless we eat and drink Him we have no life", HE said, "all who thirst come to Him and drink", HE breathed the Holy Spirit into the disciples, HE said, "He would be a well in us springing up..." I think its not taken far enough, and I think Jesus did that more often than not.

Otherwise, no, it doesn't offend me in general. It's scriptural.
One.
It does say that. My belief is that Lee's interpretation of that went too far, and read all kinds of things into it that weren't really there. Again, I think he depersonalized God and our relationship with him, turning it into more of a process than an intimate knowing between conscious beings.

The Bible says that eternal life is knowing God. My long experience tells me I can't gain transformation by bypassing an intimate relationship with God and just imbibe his "life" and "nature." I think that way of looking at things is a mistake and I cannot see that the Bible has that perspective. To know God you have relate to God, I mean the Holy Spirit. And before all the Holy Spirit is a Person, with a mind, an opinion, an attitude and a character. All the metaphors for the Spirit--water, breath, even life--are characteristics of God's PERSON. So the less you know the Person, the less you have those things.

Yes, Jesus in scripture says that: "you search (and research) the scripture for in them- you think- you have eternal life". They testify of Him. "Yet refuse to come to me that you may have life". How do you come to Him? He says: come eat the bread life, and come drink the water of life. This is by no means "bypassing and intimate relationship" but pursuing and developing one based on the way the One who loves us has spoken to us. I'd rather learn His love language than yours.

Lee said that Christ is life, and He is. But he also taught that knowing Christ as life and Christ as "our person" are two distinct things. I think that is nonsense. If Christ himself is life then if you know life you know him and vice versa. And if you cannot simultaneously know Christ the Person and not have him as your person. It's funny the way LCers talk about "knowing life" as if it is somehow different from knowing Christ. But it can't be. This is what I mean when I say they depersonalize our relationship with Christ. They turned "life" into something that was almost just some kind of force or energy, like they were getting the benefits of God without having to deal with his person. Can't do it and it's a mistake to want to.

You contradict yourself, first you categorize "even life as a metaphor, a characteristic of God", then you say, "if you know life you know God and vice versa". So all those who take the Lord at HIS word to eat, drink, and breath Him for life, according to you have His person also? So to me it boils down to your way (whatever that is) or His. I think I'll go with His.

Sure, the Bible uses the word "metamorphosis." But the fact is we don't know exactly how the Spirit changes us. We do know that the Spirit leads us and we are to obey. I believe real transformation happens in those acts of obedience to Him, because that is my experience. I didn't experience much change simply by "eating and drinking." It really came when I realized God wants to change the way I think about things and how I react to things. And like it or not, changes of those kind require decisions to do things in certain ways. You can call that "acting" if you want. I call it obedience.

Think about this as you are thinking about obedience. Scripture says: But thou, son of man, HEAR WHAT I SAY UNTO THE, be not thou rebellious like that rebellious house: open thy mouth and EAT that which I give the. Ezekiel 2:8.
Hungry yet? I am.

The issue is not whether you are acting or not acting, the issue is whether you are walking in obedience to the Holy Spirit. And in my experience sometimes he tells me to act. Sometimes God tells me to act happy to see someone that I'm not really happy to see. He tells me to love people I really don't want to love. And guess what? Like C.S. Lewis said, the more you act like you love someone, the more you start to genuinely love them. I believe it's part of the way God created us to work. Imagine that.

God NEVER tells us to act; He tell us to deny ourselves, to take up our cross and follow Him. Replace the word "act" with deny yourself and I fully agree. Thats the way God works!

So your mocking of the word character by spelling it "charACTOR" is pretty short-sighted. I'm reminded of the true story of the elder who came home from a meeting to the sight of his sick wife washing the dishes. He went upstairs and didn't help her. Later, when their marriage was falling apart, she asked him why he didn't help her that night. He said he wasn't sure doing so was "of life." It probably would have been better for that elder if he had just "acted" like helping his wife was "of life," because God commands us to cherish our wives, even when we don't feel like it, and when we don't feel like it we should act like we do anyway because that's what a cherishing person does! Get it? He doesn't wait around for "life" to "transform" him. It's just that kind of nonsensical ungodly behavior that Lee's ministry often led to.

You blame a grown man's selfish behavior on Bro.Lee? When all is said and done we all will give account. Strange how that works. God gave us all the Bible and the Holy Spirit to lead us and guide us into all reality. Yet somehow you seem to have laid this responsibility for the saints in the LCs on one man.
Some saints never mature no matter how old they are or what type of position they hold, elder or otherwise.

So I genuinely think that a lot Lee's ministry led us away from knowing God and into some kind of pseudo spiritual "inner life" experience that was not of God. Now I believe that God is known inwardly, as the Holy Spirit. I just think that Lee focused so much on his carefully constructed "inner life" theology that he missed the point, which was to know God. I think all his errors spring from that.

Well, WL surely made some very serious mistakes, but where all his errors spring from were not all errors. He labored with the talent given to him by the Lord. I am not ashamed to say that my book shelves are lined with the fruit of his labor.

And I don't believe that anyone who truly knows God would abuse authority the way Lee and Titus and all those guys did. I've had the privilege to get to know some very godly men since I left the LC, and one thing they all have in common is they respect the authority of the Holy Spirit in each person. They would never presume to usurp it the way LC leadership does.

Brother, let me say from experience you never know what a man will do other than sin, even "godly" men.

Two.

Okay, I've done what you asked. Trust me, Olvin, I know the Bible and Church history. Just because I don't interpret it as you do doesn't mean I don't.

I don't hate Lee and it is not my mission in life to lambaste him. My mission in life is to help people know God. And in my experience and observation, many of Lee's teachings are actually a hindrance to that. I'm sorry if that offends you, but if your main perspective on Christian truth is still Lee's version then you only see one side of the story. I see your perspective, because I've lived it, and I see the one I have now. You only see your perspective.

Let me say after much reflection, it is you ALSO Igzy, who are actually in serious danger of being a hindrance. There are many many saints who are seeking encouragement, comfort and direction because of the pain they experienced leaving the LCs. Even children of abusive parents need to be able to salvage childhood joys. Abusive parents my have taken there children on wonderful vacations, celebrated all the special days of the year, the home movies may not show one hint of the abuse. Parents who punch, and slap their children may also have read them bed time stories and taught them to ride a bike or swim. No counselor would ever suggest that the children reject or try to forget all those normal, pleasant, childhood memories because of the horrific ones. Even the counselor knows that is something for the child to reconcile within themselves. Brother what I see you doing in this forum causing saints to question the faithfulness of God in their lives. Do you believe that all things work together for good? Do you believe that his word will no return void. Do you believe that we have an anointing and no need to be taught. But the anointing that is in us is true and is no lie...?
My point is Igzy: You only have YOUR perspective, you still presume to see mine. I was abused, but in my LC family as well as many who post here, there were many wonderful times had with brothers and sisters. I can separate the good from the bad, the ugly from the glorious.

I have said in a number of ways that at some point you must be able to separate the man from his work. Only in the person of Christ can perfection be found. Consider this verse: John2:25 'because he needed not that any one should bear witness concerning man; for he himself knew what was in man.

You don't have to agree with me, but I'm satisfied that my conclusions line up with the Bible, and they also match my experience.

Those who hunger and thirst for righteousness shall be filled.
Do be satisfied or you'll just be full of yourself.