Quote:
Originally Posted by Nell
You've crossed a line, Mike. This is outrageous. Shame on you.
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I sorry you feel that way. It would appear that upon putting up Cahn's message against the Bible, as you suggested to Zeek (I believe) he if found seriously wanting. And if you say I need to go beyond the audio file linked in the beginning of this thread, or the things posted from what he said, then you need to rethink. You need to make the case. And you have failed.
But the only thing that has crossed the line here is Cahn's message. It has purported to be a message from the Bible when there is no evidence that it is. It is an ugly message. And to achieve its goals requires that it be even uglier.
What I have said is an opinion concerning the message of Cahn and the continued things that you post on his behalf. You have taken that as personal. The only think that I have actually said personally about you (or anyone else pushing Cahn's message here) is that it is your responsibility to provide evidence that it is in any way valid. For the most part, you have openly declined. Just said things like "read the book" or "read the Bible."
Separate yourself from your opinions. And quit the false posturing by hiding behind accusations about how you perceive the "tone" of the message and throwing out ad hominems.
You have brought a premise. It is considered your responsibility to support it or to bow out. You do neither, and then throw barbs as those who have nothing but sound generalities to rebut the unspecific claims by Mr. Cahn. He has mentioned some verses. But he does not (in anything that I have yet seen or heard) provide a reason to apply those to anything other than Israel in a specific context. If you have a reason besides "it just seems right" to support his teaching/message, provide it.
It would be good to have a session of "come, let us reason." But it requires something re reason about. At this point, the only thing supplied by your side of the discussion is rather easily debunked as having no foundation. And we have stated that continually. Do you think there is a foundation? If so, provide it.
But when I said that this whole message of Cahn is ugly, I meant it. I have observed the actions of the people who are part of the overall thought process that Cahn is part of, including the "Christian Nation" groups, which he is clearly associated with. Their actions are un-Christian. They are far from "loving" to their neighbor.
Complain about my tone if you like. I am at least keeping this within the church. Cahn, like so many of the activists of "Christian Nation" thinking are putting it out there into the public. They are effectively chastising everyone, including the heathen, for not being the way he wants. There is no prohibition against standing up to the errors within the body. And this is a big one.
Everyone else is still trying to "play nice." But there comes a time when you have to actually speak up to your opposition with more than a feeling. More than "read the book." And that time has come.
This
is a challenge. But it should not be an "out of bounds" challenge because you are proposing and fighting for a position that you will not defend with anything but wishful thinking and emotions. If there actually is more than that behind it, neither you nor anyone else has bothered to put it out here for our consideration. It is technically your job. Decline again and you
should be asked to stop posting on the subject. It won't happen, but it should happen.
This is not some light, trite, side issue. It is a serious issue for the church today. For many, it is a blight on our landscape. And I believe that until the church rejects this kind of position strongly and out loud (just like we want those moderate Muslims to speak out against the Jihadists), its reputation and testimony in the world is damaged.