[Dancing]

Originally Posted by OBW

While I will probably not be joining up with any Jewish or specifically Jewish-Christian group, I understand those statements quite well.

And the more modern portions of Christianity, especially among the evangelical and fundamentalist groups, are heavily mired in knowledge over practice. But that is not an absolute — not in all groups/assemblies, or even completely true of very many assemblies. Most have a realization of doing. Or are gaining such a realization.

But the emphasis is there. And the default mode is to deal with doctrine and orthodoxy rather than practice and orthopraxy. There is a tremendous belief that the ongoing grace of God is for covering our continued sins/unrighteousness. And it is true that it does that. But that was not the purpose of grace — to allow us to say we are positionally righteous while being dispositionally unrighteous and not really thinking much of it.

The scary thing to many about moving from the overt crutch of grace to cover our willingness to just skip sanctification and on to living righteousness is that it is the place we we all tend to go Pharisee. We start looking under every rock for another edict to keep ourselves righteous by discovering rules rather than by relying on the source of righteousness, which is God.

In fact, it has been suggested that the fall was not simply the disobedience of eating fruit. It was more the determination that we could be wise and decide right and wrong for ourselves. And while many argue that they leave the right v wrong to the Bible, that is often not really true. They are either parsing scripture to create allowance for their favorite unrighteousness, or layering rule after rule upon it to make sure we never get close to unrighteousness. In scriptural references, we can either be those who use a trick to avoid caring for their parents, or alternately become those that do not actually say or even write the name of God so that they won't inadvertently use it in vain.

And at some level, that is not much better than knowing a lot that you don't put into practice. Why do I say this? Because Jesus spoke strongly about both sides of the problems with "doing" that I mentioned (along with others).

So it is not as simple as to just start doing. Doing what? Avoiding people of certain kinds? (Like the kinds that Jesus ate with.)

We like to talk about our joy, or enjoyment. I note that in all kinds of ways different people are seeking great experiences. I even note that at least one wrote something out in another language (I think Hebrew or something like that) that was done in ALL CAPS with lots of exclamation points.

Not dissing that thought or experience. But how often do we do the same concerning our failures? To bring another language into the picture, how often do we declare "Kyrie Eleison, Christe Eleison"? There is another part of modern evangelical/fundamental Christianity that is often heavily missing. Or only given a little time or thought.

Repentance. Lord have mercy. Christ have mercy. We too often look on that as poor worship. Especially if it is said in Latin or Greek.

I don't see the problem being that we don't spend enough time knowing what the law demands. We know what it demands. But we are convinced that we don't really need to worry about it that much because we are "under grace." (Now those who declare that the law has been abolished are even worse off because they know what is true, but don't have any care for it because the think it no longer applies.)

I have little doubt concerning where I am righteous and where I am unrighteous. My unrighteousness is, rightly, repented of as often as I can. But I am not waiting on more dispensing. Or on finding a new appreciation for the law. I know that I have been charged to walk according to the Spirit and fulfill the righteousness of the law. I have the expectation that if I connect with the Spirit that I have what it takes to do it. Failure is due to my lack of application of the Spirit (or not staying in sync with the Spirit), not lack of knowledge or appreciation for the law. Or any lack of "dispensing."

So despite the fact that I have been driving many of the long-time regulars on this forum crazy with my "obedience" mantras the last couple of years, I cannot find myself determining that following a group whose emphasis is a renewed love for the law and doing it is really what I need. I need the knowledge that those Evangelical groups provide. It is from knowledge that we are first brought to Christ. It is from knowledge that I realize my failings. But knowledge has its limits. Once the knowledge is found, practice should follow. I don't need to love the knowledge source more (the scripture). I need to do.

And I don't need a different group to do that. I just need to do. (And that would have put Lee into conniptions.)

Thank you for this. It truly echos in my heart. And no, it's never as simple as just doing.

And you are right about the pitfalls of legalistic observance without heart. But isn't this what the Lord exposed when he said,

[Deu 10:16 KJV]
Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

[Deu 30:6 KJV]
And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

[Jer 4:4 KJV]
Circumcise yourselves to the LORD, and take away the foreskins of your heart, ye men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem: lest my fury come forth like fire, and burn that none can quench [it], because of the evil of your doings.

But you hit the nail on the head here:
But how often do we do the same concerning our failures? To bring another language into the picture, how often do we declare "Kyrie Eleison, Christe Eleison"? There is another part of modern evangelical/fundamental Christianity that is often heavily missing. Or only given a little time or thought.

Repentance. Lord have mercy. Christ have mercy. We too often look on that as poor worship.

This is PRECISELY what is needed! This IS true worship! If we could only see what is gained through true repentance! We would all DROP OUR FEARS AND SUCCESSES AND RUN INTO HIS ARMS!
You said:
I don't see the problem being that we don't spend enough time knowing what the law demands. We know what it demands. But we are convinced that we don't really need to worry about it that much because we are "under grace." (Now those who declare that the law has been abolished are even worse off because they know what is true, but don't have any care for it because the think it no longer applies.)

And that is called, Taking God for granted. So, taking the law for granted is really taking God for granted. And, a TRUE heart loves the law in the TRUEST way

Therefore, aside from abuse of grace or law I think there is yet another position (place). It is where we come to Him with hearts that know His mercy and could never condemn another, but long to have His laws seared into our hearts; a place where as we behold the law we don't see an impossible or cruel demand but as it were the Spirit of the law calling us and lifting us to heights that He alone in His grace can and WILL bring us, for which we can take no credit but only praise Him and cry, "Holy, holy, holy!" To this place we believe all can come because we truly know His mercy and love.

And I believe these days the Lord is raising up such lovers. He CAN do it and He IS. He MUST. It is a place were perfection is perfect because all self-righteousness is detestable. It's a place we can only arrive at by knowing the depths of our depravity and the heights of His love. In time, I believe He would help us all arrive there, if we are willing to let go of everything we think WE know for the price of knowing HIM in HIS LOVE.