Quote:
Originally Posted by Toledo
How about Post #152...?
"Every single soul"...? That's more than simply "most".
So far you have not made your case. Perhaps that's why there is so much resistance. You started with "the fact that the LC was idolatrous and every single soul who went into the LC and loved it at any stage of their experience there was entering into a level of idolatry." However, though there were and are undeniably serious problems in the local churches, you have yet to establish that idolatry is a "fact". Rather it remains only your personal assertion.
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Toledo, I will never make the case on this issue at the level of extreme that I have presented it. At the same time, I have made enough of the case...
I knew there would be a lot of resistance to what I said and that few would buy it at the level I have been presenting it. Only God knows what is the right level at which we should estimate it.
I'm going to do some thinking and see if I can clarify what I was saying in a clearer fashion without losing substance, but let me do a little lawyeresque fine-slicing from your quote of me for now...
I said,
"every single soul who went into the LC and loved it at any stage of their experience there..." The word
it refers to the
LC, not the Lord. If you fell in love with the
LC then you went into a level of idolatry. The reason I say this is because the LC was almost never (except in the very early 60's) just the "church in your locality". It was a system of interconnected churches across many localities. It was interconnected by a particular ministry (Witness Lee's).
We are not to worship the Body of Christ. We are to worship God. We are called to love the members of the Body, not the Body as a concept. This is part of what has happened in the LC. The Body of Christ has been worshipped on par with God. We see it in it's extreme form among the Blended's, but it was/is present in lesser forms among many, many more from the LC.
I totally agree that my statement went to the extreme and I acknowledged that with my note on point #2 in post #152.
Also, in post #152 I clearly stated that I did not consider myself an authority even though I was speaking strongly.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Matt
In closing, I am no authority. I am just one voice. I'll speak and if you want to try to call me an authority to try and put me in my place go ahead.
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In closing on this note, let me say that I do understand everyone's reaction to this subject and to my presentation of it. I am not blind to the level of
emphasis I have brought to this subject nor am I blind to the level of
pushing I have done. I never expected sweeping agreement. I expected the opposite and I got it. At this stage, I'm defending the fact that this issue belongs on the table in front of everyone. The pervasive effect of the LC system (an idolatrous one) on the lives of many needs to be fully examined and the leaven should be purged.
I've done what I have done on this thread knowingly and in good conscience before the Lord. Any personal offense I have caused I will clear up. I don't believe I have attacked anyone personally, although I will admit to giving Hope a hard time on some occasions and pushing back on a few others when they have come after me. When and if Hope thinks I've crossed the line with him personally, I am willing to address it.
Peter Debelak introduced 1 Cor 5:11-12 as part of a question to me which I have not responded to yet. If you have a minute re-read 1 Corinthians 5. Take the context of the chapter in. There is serious sin in the midst of the Corinthians and Paul knows it needs to be dealt with. When I re-read to address Peter's question, I saw a verse I hadn't seen before.
I've bolded it. It's one of my central concerns when it comes to this desire to highlight the "positives" from the past. No one thinks we should set Christ aside, but I've heard much glorying in the past of the LC in my travels around the Midwest and elsewhere. We even have a phrase that we have heard on these forums. It's the "glory days".
1 Corinthians 5:4-7
in the name of our Lord Jesus, ye being gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus, (5) to deliver such a one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. (6) Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump? (7) Purge out the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, even as ye are unleavened. For our passover also hath been sacrificed, even Christ:
A decent amount of my resistance has been to Hope and his desire to try and balance out the "negatives" with the "positives". Cleaning house based on past events is about focusing on the "negatives". Jesus Christ will take care of the positives by His Spirit. He will bless us with His presence when we are faithful to repent!
I've made the strong point that right in the midst of the "glory days" you (collective you) were being leavened by an worker whose heart was not set totally on the Lord. Yes, Witness Lee. His deeds demonstrate a lot of seeking filthy lucre and selfish gain.
Matt
P.S. to SC - I've only been harping on Lee because the position he holds in people's heart. We have to confront some facts that are little known. I don't hate Lee. He had serious issues that he foisted on top of many believers and was allowed to get far too much power among the saints. The fact is that he is dead, but those left with him too high in their hearts need to confront the deeds of his past even before the US. If someone has fully confronted his deeds and still wants to read some of his material, then go for it. However, I strongly believe his writings would be a stumblingblock to a young believer because of the leaven in them. In my opinion, they should not be promoted to the uninformed.