[aron]

Originally Posted by NeedofHelp

her reply:
"What is wrong with brainwashing when it is in the name of the Lord and it brings you to His Kingdom?"

That's when I felt like I had no shot at getting through to her. Because brainwashing in any sense is wrong, to me at least.

Brainwashing is a sort of controversial term, like "cult". It's so emotionally freighted that it's hard to use in any objective way that all the participants in the discussion agree upon.

My own subjective reaction is this: brainwashing is good if it is done by God, but not good if done by other fallen humans. The Bible is God's speaking to us; it shows us the heavenly kingdom, and releases us from the bonds of earth. As Paul said, "the things that are seen are not real, but the invisible things are eternal." The Bible shows us the invisible things and it's good, by faith, to receive these words of life. This is good brainwashing; to have our soul (our mind) re-made in God's image.

The problem here is that Nee's and Lee's thinking is the vehicle for brainwashing, and that is no better than if you become my acolyte or I become yours. We then become followers of others, and not of God. Jesus told the Pharisees, "You lead your disciples into the ditch"; the blind lead the blind. So my question is: who is washing your brain - God or man?

Originally Posted by NeedofHelp

I just know they both don't belong there. I pray all the time about it, and I feel that the Lord has directed me to help them come out of it.

Look what Jesus did to break people's rotten thinking. He showed the contradictions inherent in their own belief systems. As soon as they realized the inherent irrationality of their mental constructions, they were freed from their power. See, for example:

"Whose son is the Christ?"

"David's son"

"Then how does David in spirit call Him Lord, saying, 'The LORD said to my Lord..."

The Living Stream Ministry (LSM) bases its mental constructions on a set of mutually reinforcing principles. They propose only one church in each city, for example. But that bases itself on a set of reinforcing verses which create an image of scriptural rationality. The uses of ekklesia, or "church" that don't fit the LSM understanding, are ignored. Hundreds of years before Jesus told Peter, "on this rock I will build my church" the Greek Septuagint was already using the word; see for example Psalm 22:22. Obviously it had different meanings before the NT.

Another example is Acts 19:41. "And with these words he dismissed the assembly". How could the town clerk in Ephesus dismiss a church (ekklesia)? So we translate the Greek word to something different to maintain our mental coherence.

And in Romans 16, there are assemblies in Rome that meet in houses, and are also called 'ekklesia'. So Paul was aware of more than one 'church' in Rome and didn't have a problem with that. In fact, multiple assemblies per urban area demonstrate growth and multiplication, not division as LSM maintains! Even the LSM allows multiple assemblies in each urban area, as long as they play with words and call them 'meetings' or something like that; then they don't violate their own concepts.

Your job is to point out the contradictions inherent in LSM ideas. They don't see the contradictions because they are inside the small circle of thoughts and shared meanings. You're outside the circle, using a bigger Bible, a broader range of meanings, and can raise these points. Jesus said, "A house divided cannot stand"; the words of scripture can expose the division in LSM teachings and show that they are confused, contradictory, and of Babel.

Now, I could do the same with all of LSMs foundational principles, which they use to brainwash their clients. All of them are based on small sets of verses which deliberately ignore scriptures that don't fit the Nee and Lee 'vision'. In LSM terms, you have to "get the vision"; the vision of the Body, of the local church, of the ministry of the age, etc. You have to uncritically receive a set of propositions that are inherently contradictory with the entire Biblical corpus. As long as you attend the trainings regularly and get your brain washed with the narrow tenets of the group, which involves ignoring and explaining away non-LSM scriptures, you can maintain the fiction.

So my suggestion is that if you care about your friends, to educate yourself in a Bible beyond that used by LSM. Like you mentioned, they ignore stuff like Psalms & James, that doesn't fit their 'vision'. So if you have a bigger Bible than they do, then you can free them.

Remember how Jesus freed peoples' minds: "Have you not read the scriptures?" (Matt 19:4) Jesus said, "Man does not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds out of My Father's mouth". Not just some of the words, those that fit your mental constructions. Jesus said, "These things were written concerning Me". Not just the things that Lee liked, in the 'Christ in His human living' teachings. Jesus is bigger than Lee's teachings and you can present this to your friends. This will open the doors of perception. Then they can leave. As long as the LSM maintains a tight grip on their brain they can't leave.

It is the same kind of therapy used to free schizophrenics. Make them aware, make them confront the contradictions inherent in their own thinking, and then they will see the doorway out. Otherwise they are trapped, and round and round the circle they go.