Quote:
Originally Posted by awareness
Okay Maximum Brother, let's get back on the brass tacks.
|
Actually I've decided to renounce my title as MB, aka Sir Max-alot. In a fit of sober-mindedness I realized that only Jesus is "the name above every name", and anyone else who presumes pride of place is in for a tough surprise. So I quit. Sorry.
Of course there are indeed apostles, prophets, evangelists, shepherds and teachers. But there are also wanna-be's, fakes and frauds. Along with people who for some weird reason need to be taken for a ride. I know; I was there once.
So better that we don't even joke here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by awareness
You say you want to see Spirit from the heavenly point of view. I'd like that too.
So I'm hopin' that yer gonna tell me how to see that way.
|
As I said, I believe that we all "have the oracle", and the church is the place where our visions can be presented and pruned. You and I both remember when the Local Churches were really local and that happened, at least occasionally. So I'm not gonna do a "Lee" on you and tell you how to see the way. Anyone wants to be told the way, they can read a HWFMR outline. It is full of "we shoulds", "we needs", and "we have tos." I'm not that way and I resent it when anyone tries to tell me how to follow Jesus.
Instead I'll tell you what happened to me and you can figure out if it relates. As I said earlier, I began to focus more and more on the apostle John. Not that I am "of John", but rather I began to feel that John's writing could show me something about Jesus that I couldn't see anywhere else. John was there at the beginning, and also there at the end. His ministry book-ended the whole shebang. So, I wanted to see what John was trying to say to me.
But first I had my "we see Jesus" moment from Hebrews chapter 2: there, I suddenly realized that I was part of the "we" that could see Jesus, and it was in the present tense. It was me, and it was now! It was like when I saw the author of Hebrews seeing Jesus, I knew that I could also; a door was opened for my own experience. I just could believe, today, and see.
So I became determined to see, I guess. Then when I was in John's gospel, and I kept getting drawn to the first chapter, where John the Baptist was walking alone with 2 disciples and they met Jesus. That story climaxed in the utterance: "You will see heaven opened, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man." Now, first I got curious: where did this imperative statement get fulfilled? Jesus said, "You will see" something, so it definitely happened. Then, as I was considering, spontaneously I began to pray, and began to declare, and even demand the same experience. I wanted to see heaven opened. I wanted to see the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man. Jesus had said, "You will", so by faith I demanded fulfillment.
At that moment, everything began to change for me. The Bible just began to open up, and the "behind the scenes" stuff suddenly became apparent. All the miracles and speakings and wondrous works; suddenly behind them I could see "angels ascending and descending", etc. And this included the Spirit. This included the seven flames of fire before the throne. This included the seven eyes of the Lamb, which run to and fro throughout the earth. This included the angel talking to Hagar in the wilderness, and she said, "You are the God who sees me." Etc, etc. I just began to see it all. It became as real to me as any mind-picture of J.R.R. Tolkien's Middle Earth when I was a kid.
Quote:
Originally Posted by awareness
I suppose UntoHim will tell you the way to do that is thru the Bible ; that the Bible provides the heavenly view we're lookin' for.
Hey, I had one Church of Christ'er tell me the Bible is the Holy Spirit, based a verse that reads "the spirit of the word," somewh'ers.
|
The Bible provides the heavenly view, but we are all different. John 1:51 happened to open a "door to heaven" for me, but maybe some other verse or experience will guide you. Lee's experience in Paul's "God's economy" or "now the Lord is that Spirit" may have been watersheds for his consciousness. But Lee's vision ain't gonna become a law imposed upon my consciousness. If anyone out there needs it, surely Lee's BBs (or Chu or Dong or any other Apostle-lite) will be happy to run your life for you.
Instead, I see the church as a place not to get visions from others but to present our own visions. And then a 'zeek' or an 'Igzy' will come along and say, "not so fast", because otherwise you might run off the rails. Because although it's inspiring to see visions, the church is where rubber hits road. Like OBW said, ultimately it's not about your talking the talk, it's about your walking the walk.
Certainly I've talked some kind of talk here. But how much is "self" and how much is "God"? I really don't know. So I don't take myself or even my visions too seriously. But I believe God is real, and I believe the door to heaven is open, and the Spirit is calling. And man, when you get a whiff of it, wow! You feel like that Samaritan woman: you wanna run around and shout, Come and see! Suddenly church becomes fun, if they'll let you talk. You can share your vision. Suddenly that guy next to you at work becomes a potential receptacle for the Spirit enlivening you. It can really be a blast. Suddenly you really feel that "wherever two or more are gathered in my name" stuff. It's real.