Quote:
Originally Posted by awareness
Until it was brought up out here I've never questioned my salvation. I was raised on OSAS. And it stuck.
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I think that you have little to question. (meaning little to fear)
Despite my rather lengthy question, and its apparent tie-in to a discussion that was tracking just a short time back, I am not suggesting that salvation is something that can be set aside with any kind of ease.
Just not sure that the common thought of what is it that we call salvation is the whole thing.
I did not ask questions to suggest that I had come to a conclusion and was trying to use the rhetoric of the ancients to get anyone to conclude with me. I asked questions because I have questions. There is something that is not clear to me. And it is made more and more unclear when you put it up against a variant of doctrines in which you can rock along without any knowledge of Christ, get invited to a meeting (of any kind — a LRC love feast, Baptist or Methodist Sunday service, etc.), become convicted concerning your sin and the sacrifice of Christ, with true remorse come down and pray the prayer you are asked to pray (or meet with someone privately and say a prayer) and you are permanently saved. (Well, the Methodists don't believe it is entirely permanent.)
Despite what we have been taught, is that prayer more of an emotional response to a realization of our own condition than a declaration that Jesus has become the master of our life? Is this more of the beginning of the process in which we move from totally ignorant to at least realizing it is worth a consideration?
Has a seed been planted? Probably so. Is it grown enough to know where it was planted? Probably not. If we then watch the seed, we will see how its roots take hold. Will some seem to do little more than sprout from the ground, then die? Will some be trampled by the traffic on the edge of the path? Will some grow better, but still not be squarely in the field, and therefore eventually choked out by competition for whatever spiritual nutrients are available? Then eventually we will see some who are clearly planted and growing.
But how long is long enough? A week? A month? A year? Two? Three? Five? Ten?
Or is it a lifetime?
So the question is, what is salvation? Is it that start-up prayer? Or, to somewhat mess with the parable's metaphor, is it a serious process in which one makes his/her way off of the path of life into the field of Christ? Is it something that takes work, fear, and trembling?
And, no matter where you think you or others may be on that path, is it a little like the parable of the laborers. No matter how late in your day you are hired, when your day is up, it is the fact that you are working (in the processes) that qualifies you for the "pay"?
I realize that this last mash-up of parables might suggest a works-based salvation. But that is not what I was implying. No matter what we do it is only the love, grace, power, etc., of Christ that saves or changes us. But it is through our faith that he does it. And as faith and belief are only as real as our practical belief, if we do not act as if believing, how can we say we believe? How do you declare yourself to be a follower of Christ as you refuse to actually follow him as he has directly (spoken in the gospels) or indirectly (as written in the rest of the scripture)? I am wondering quite loudly whether typical evangelical "faith" and "grace" are, in fact, the faith and grace that Christ spoke of an Paul and others continued to speak of.
No. Works do not save you. But without works (or at least working) it would appear that Christ does not provide his salvation.
"Oh, but it says 'believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved' " is the cry I hear. Convince me that you can truly believe and not obey. I have doubts. And my doubts concern the notion that belief can be simply a convinced head. A good feeling in your insides when you think about Christ. When you consider his sacrifice. ("Jesus Christ, I think upon your sacrifice. You became nothing, poured out your life . . ." as a more recent song went.)
I realize that I have not only asked questions but made some statements. But these are not my declarations of truth. They are ponderings. They are where I think I am beginning to find myself. But I am not convinced it is the truth just yet.
It puts me somewhat at cross-hairs with the bulk of the people I meet with at the moment. I think there are others who have different thoughts from the bulk of the group. But they speak in very cautious terms as they possibly push the envelope. This group includes the preacher. I don't necessarily think he would agree with me. And I have no expectations that anyone should. But every time that someone trots out a strongly Calvinist position (especially those 6-point Calvinists who feel that 5 are just not enough), I see them basically brush aside the verses that are problematic. Just like Nee and Lee, they cannot make "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling" so they say that it can't mean what it is clearly saying. Must mean something else.
And yet, despite my uncertainty about what is salvation, I still find myself with an assurance. So I do not think that the position I am leaning toward is unable to be sure of salvation. But to apply that kind of statement to a person minutes after they walk in off the street and pray that prayer is probably a mistake. That is probably why the more instantly burning a new convert seems to be, the more stark is the contrast when they walk away. They come in, pray the prayer, and are put on the front lines preaching the gospel (when they have no idea what it is) and almost as suddenly as they appear, they disappear.