[Matt Anderson]

Originally Posted by Ohio

How do you know that "issues related to authority / submission" were not very much on the hearts on the Taiwan saints during the 50's and 60's? To entirely make that conflict a matter of "church ground" is not realistic. Others have written that the saints in Taiwan were very upset over the sale of church property to pay off personal debts. Usually "trigger points" are not the "whole point," conflicts such as that one are complicated indeed.

Where exactly did I say that authority / submission didn't have anything to do with it? Where exactly did I say it was only an issue of church ground?

I agree that there were other factors including mismanagement of funds. There were other factors too. However, what I brought forward is the fact that God through T. Austin Sparks addressed one very specific factor. The doctrine of the "ground of locality". God knew Lee was off on that topic. It was/is a false teaching.

I did not introduce this as an exclusive factor. I introduced it as a crucial factor.

Please stop putting words in my mouth. I am not putting words in yours. Check what I wrote. Read it again. I believe you've misinterpreted it.

Originally Posted by Ohio

What also troubles me are your continued comments that you are being faithful to God and His word, as if no other dissenting poster is. You make comments that we are not being "honest" with the facts, and afraid of the "light shining" in dark or grey areas, as if you alone are in the light, are honest with our history, approach God in the light, and are faithful to speak honestly.

Where have I said that others are not being faithful? Please quote a place where I have said you are not being "honest" with the facts, so that I may respond to a specific.

You are making claims about where I am coming from that are not things I have posited, nor do I think them. Nice try, but I will simply deny them. If you want to confront me because you believe I am terribly wrong in all of this, then let's plan for a get together. Let's invite everyone you've been conversing with (on-line and off-line) and have a meeting to address it.

Originally Posted by Ohio

I have written before that your posts not only condemn all LC'ers, but also all of God's people, whether wheat or tares, lukewarm or diligent, serving or visiting, none is excluded. You have inferred that since "all Israel is idolatrous," then all the church must be also. Nothing one can say has altered your views one bit. I see warnings in the N.T. but no such views as yours. For you to say object to Timotheist's "sweeping indictments and broad generalizations," is exactly what I have tried to do with some of your posts.

To Timotheist I said, "If it were just a cultural thing, then the Church in Taiwan would not have split over the issues related to authority/submission. Sorry, that argument doesn't fly. It goes beyond a general cultural issue as the evidence indicates."

I did not dismiss his statements categorically. I said that it was not just a cultural thing. We all know culture had something to do with it and recently it has been stated that this was a key issue. It is obvious in what I wrote that I did not categorically dismiss the fact that culture was involved. I said that it went beyond a general culture issue.

Calling out sin is not condemnation. You think I have crossed a line in this regard. I realize that, but I have been careful to stay focused on sinful deeds and not to turn 'idolatry' into making Christians 'idolaters'. You are responding to my comments repeatedly claiming that I am condemning persons. I am not. I am condemning sin.

You're partial quote does not account for the fact that I acknowledged I am making sweeping generalizations. I only indicated that I am at least trying to back mine up with information and not just make the broad generalizations.

Care to establish your sweeping indictment with more facts. At least I try to establish what I am saying with information and not just make the broad generalizations. In addition, I attempt to point it topically and not personally (I know I haven't always succeeded on this second point).

Why don't we simplify something here. Do you believe you never committed idolatry in your time in the LC as a result of your involvement in the system of the LC? If so, why do you believe you are excluded from it? What do you believe is the threshold for committing the sin of idolatry from God's point of view?

I've asked you several specific questions that you have skated past. I have tried to address your points. Care to address some specifics as focused on the substance of the topic rather than the messenger whose message you don't like?

I'm still telling you that I acknowledge what you are saying. I acknowledge what you are saying about Timotheist. It's obvious that I am not "hearing" you, but this doesn't mean I am ignoring you.

Roger had it exactly correct. I'm saying, yes there was massive idolatry. He is saying, no there was not. It's that simple. The only difference is that I am presenting additional information and you still want me to shut up.

Matt