Local Church Discussions - View Single Post

Hope · 08-28-2008, 05:20 PM

Hello Forum and special greetings to Matt,

Quote from Matt
My initial reaction to this thread and my decision to post here was based on a key fact. Hope was trying to exclude his locality from the rest of the Texas bunch. I stood up in opposition to this attempt. The reason I did is not because Dallas was the best or worst, but because it was part of a whole set of churches that were under the strong sway of an idolatrous system that was engineered and whose engineering started all the way back in the mid-60's.

This quote says a lot Matt. Actually I was attempting to counter the broad brush approach of dj and a few other posters. I had no idea we were headed toward a discussion of idolatry. This is a false premise, simple and basic. I prefer to speak about what I know personally and directly. Often you see the phrase in the NT “seen and heard.” The apostles spoke about what they had seen and heard. I would prefer to only address what I do know. Of course there were many commonalities among the various churches in Texas. For the most part they all flowed out of Houston and then also out of Dallas and then Austin etc.

Benson Phillips was the very dominating leader. In my opinion he possessed the first gift mentioned in Rom 12:8, he who leads, with diligence; he who shows mercy, with cheerfulness. NASB Benson was an incredible leader. He shaped everyone and one thing he will never be accused of is being lazy. Look up the word diligence in the dictionary and you will find his picture. But isn’t it interesting that showing mercy follows the mention of the gift of leading and is of equal importance with all the other gifts of teaching, prophesy etc. The mutual life of the believers in the Body of Christ cannot work well without some of the members having this gift of showing mercy. (I love to fellowship on Romans chapter 12 and the gift of showing mercy.)

Matt, your above quote shows the mindset, bias, to throw everyone into the same bucket. Unfortunately when anyone tries to point out to you that your view may be anything less than a true report or conclusion or it is time to reconsider at least a little, you take offense that people are trying to shut you up. Perhaps you could consider ole Billy Shakespeare, when he said “me thinks thou dost protest too much.”

Hope's warning based on Edom has validity, but it must be set in context. Edom is a type of the flesh and God will completely and utterly deal with the flesh.

Types are good. I think sometimes we can overwork types. Witness Lee may have been among the all time best teachers of types but he often missed the simple points of an OT passage. Matt, I appreciate your study of the OT and of idolatry. I have studied the OT some myself and have found idolatry to be very relevant to today’s society and church. But many times it is best to just first of all take the OT story for what it is and let the Lord speak to the reader regarding his own current situation. I believe the story of Edom could have a message for the former members of the LC who have a valid interest in pointing out the errors of the system.

Is Hope saying that everything being said against the LC is just coming from the "flesh"? If not, how does Hope separate it out in his mind? As an estimate what percentage of what is being said is from the "flesh" versus what percentage is coming from some acting like the prophets? Jeremiah weeped because he saw the judgment coming on Judah and it broke his heart. This is from the Spirit of God. Edom mocked and ridiculed Judah when the judgment was coming. This was not from the Spirit of God, it was in the "flesh". (Note: I don't claim to be a prophet, nor do I claim to operate solely apart from the "flesh")

Matt, I assume you were speaking rhetorically when you called of my take of the percentage of flesh vs the percentage of Spirit. I prefer not to get too fine in analysis and then too sweeping in conclusion. This is a common error I see among zealous Christians.

What will we do if and when the LC is judged? Where is our heart? Notice I say, "if". I don't presume they will be in any way that is completely obvious from an outside viewpoint.

I am not presuming, be assured that judgment is coming and has already begun. The LSM will be judged in this age and the coming age. As it is unfolding, I do not want to be with Edom.

If our words against the teachings and practices of the LC come from the "flesh" then we should integrate some Godly fear. If however, we speak more like the prophets attempting to remind a people whose ears have been closed, then we should fear not speaking more than we fear this warning from Hope.

How about fearing both without prejudice. I know that is not easy.

If it is a reference to the "testimony" of the individual saints and the Lord in their lives, then there is absolutely no disagreement.

However, If it is a reference to the "testimony" of the group as a collective, then it is quite another thing. We move closer to the heart of the problem and why I think there is still a thought being held that is wrong according to the Lord.

Yes, and yes, the Lord’s testimony is the Lord’s testimony. Our job is not to parse out which context we like or do not like but to recognize whatever God has done. If my history continues, I now realize I will need to bring out more of the positive experiences of the group as a collective as well as individual experiences. Thank you for the input.

1. What do you propose we should keep from the "collective" / "corporate" experience of the LC? Let us see it and inspect it in the light of God's Word. Please be as specific as possible. This is a kind of challenge, but not because I am trying to cause you a problem. I really want to know what are the good things you are holding onto from the "collective" / "corporate" experience of the LC.

Matt, as a student of the OT, you know there was always a mixed bag with the Israelites, the Kings etc. They had good days and bad days. The same with the early churches and with the seven churches in Revelation chapters 1-3. The Bible is faithful to tell of both. How about us? The LSM can only speak of the good days, real or imagined. They can only refer to John Ingalls, Bill Mallon etc in evil terms, real or imagined. Lord save us from their example.

I pray and trust I am not holding onto anything from the past. I have a great hope for the future. The Lord's principle is that the glory of the later house will be more that the glory of the former house. Also, whatever the Lord does is new. He always does a new thing. We have much to look forward to.

In Christ Jesus there is hope for us all,

Hope, Don Rutledge

08-28-2008, 05:20 PM	#626
Hope Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Durham, North Carolina Posts: 313	Seen and Heard Hello Forum and special greetings to Matt, Quote from Matt My initial reaction to this thread and my decision to post here was based on a key fact. Hope was trying to exclude his locality from the rest of the Texas bunch. I stood up in opposition to this attempt. The reason I did is not because Dallas was the best or worst, but because it was part of a whole set of churches that were under the strong sway of an idolatrous system that was engineered and whose engineering started all the way back in the mid-60's. This quote says a lot Matt. Actually I was attempting to counter the broad brush approach of dj and a few other posters. I had no idea we were headed toward a discussion of idolatry. This is a false premise, simple and basic. I prefer to speak about what I know personally and directly. Often you see the phrase in the NT “seen and heard.” The apostles spoke about what they had seen and heard. I would prefer to only address what I do know. Of course there were many commonalities among the various churches in Texas. For the most part they all flowed out of Houston and then also out of Dallas and then Austin etc. Benson Phillips was the very dominating leader. In my opinion he possessed the first gift mentioned in Rom 12:8, he who leads, with diligence; he who shows mercy, with cheerfulness. NASB Benson was an incredible leader. He shaped everyone and one thing he will never be accused of is being lazy. Look up the word diligence in the dictionary and you will find his picture. But isn’t it interesting that showing mercy follows the mention of the gift of leading and is of equal importance with all the other gifts of teaching, prophesy etc. The mutual life of the believers in the Body of Christ cannot work well without some of the members having this gift of showing mercy. (I love to fellowship on Romans chapter 12 and the gift of showing mercy.) Matt, your above quote shows the mindset, bias, to throw everyone into the same bucket. Unfortunately when anyone tries to point out to you that your view may be anything less than a true report or conclusion or it is time to reconsider at least a little, you take offense that people are trying to shut you up. Perhaps you could consider ole Billy Shakespeare, when he said “me thinks thou dost protest too much.” Hope's warning based on Edom has validity, but it must be set in context. Edom is a type of the flesh and God will completely and utterly deal with the flesh. Types are good. I think sometimes we can overwork types. Witness Lee may have been among the all time best teachers of types but he often missed the simple points of an OT passage. Matt, I appreciate your study of the OT and of idolatry. I have studied the OT some myself and have found idolatry to be very relevant to today’s society and church. But many times it is best to just first of all take the OT story for what it is and let the Lord speak to the reader regarding his own current situation. I believe the story of Edom could have a message for the former members of the LC who have a valid interest in pointing out the errors of the system. Is Hope saying that everything being said against the LC is just coming from the "flesh"? If not, how does Hope separate it out in his mind? As an estimate what percentage of what is being said is from the "flesh" versus what percentage is coming from some acting like the prophets? Jeremiah weeped because he saw the judgment coming on Judah and it broke his heart. This is from the Spirit of God. Edom mocked and ridiculed Judah when the judgment was coming. This was not from the Spirit of God, it was in the "flesh". (Note: I don't claim to be a prophet, nor do I claim to operate solely apart from the "flesh") Matt, I assume you were speaking rhetorically when you called of my take of the percentage of flesh vs the percentage of Spirit. I prefer not to get too fine in analysis and then too sweeping in conclusion. This is a common error I see among zealous Christians. What will we do if and when the LC is judged? Where is our heart? Notice I say, "if". I don't presume they will be in any way that is completely obvious from an outside viewpoint. I am not presuming, be assured that judgment is coming and has already begun. The LSM will be judged in this age and the coming age. As it is unfolding, I do not want to be with Edom. If our words against the teachings and practices of the LC come from the "flesh" then we should integrate some Godly fear. If however, we speak more like the prophets attempting to remind a people whose ears have been closed, then we should fear not speaking more than we fear this warning from Hope. How about fearing both without prejudice. I know that is not easy. If it is a reference to the "testimony" of the individual saints and the Lord in their lives, then there is absolutely no disagreement. However, If it is a reference to the "testimony" of the group as a collective, then it is quite another thing. We move closer to the heart of the problem and why I think there is still a thought being held that is wrong according to the Lord. Yes, and yes, the Lord’s testimony is the Lord’s testimony. Our job is not to parse out which context we like or do not like but to recognize whatever God has done. If my history continues, I now realize I will need to bring out more of the positive experiences of the group as a collective as well as individual experiences. Thank you for the input. 1. What do you propose we should keep from the "collective" / "corporate" experience of the LC? Let us see it and inspect it in the light of God's Word. Please be as specific as possible. This is a kind of challenge, but not because I am trying to cause you a problem. I really want to know what are the good things you are holding onto from the "collective" / "corporate" experience of the LC. Matt, as a student of the OT, you know there was always a mixed bag with the Israelites, the Kings etc. They had good days and bad days. The same with the early churches and with the seven churches in Revelation chapters 1-3. The Bible is faithful to tell of both. How about us? The LSM can only speak of the good days, real or imagined. They can only refer to John Ingalls, Bill Mallon etc in evil terms, real or imagined. Lord save us from their example. I pray and trust I am not holding onto anything from the past. I have a great hope for the future. The Lord's principle is that the glory of the later house will be more that the glory of the former house. Also, whatever the Lord does is new. He always does a new thing. We have much to look forward to. In Christ Jesus there is hope for us all, Hope, Don Rutledge