[bearbear]

Originally Posted by james73

The parallel was this, and the point is open to debate, but this is what I believe: the divine is exactly the same. The "body" does its thing. The divine is in us no matter we understand it, know it, believe it, disbelieve it, whether we sin or repent or just go about a humdrum existence. The divine is in murderers, prostitutes and evil lying pastors, just as it is in bearbear, OBW and me.

I agree God loves sinners and he wants to save them at all costs. Jesus didn't avoid them but he ran to them. He ate and drank with the lowest dregs of society and you may even think of him as a party pooper but he even made alcohol for them. This puzzled the Pharisees but Jesus explained that he was a physician searching for patients to heal. However it's not healthy for sick people to stay sick after they visit the doctor.

No where in the bible does it say that it's acceptable for sinners to stay sinners, instead they are expected to be on a path which leads them to being saints. Paul never addressed his letters to sinners but to saints. When referring to those in churches, he reserved the use of the term 'sinner' for those living in sin and in danger of losing their salvation unless they repent (see 1 Cor 5:5).

“Food is meant for the stomach and the stomach for food”—and God will destroy both one and the other. The body is not meant for sexual immorality, but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body. (1 Corinthians 6:13)

Here Paul warns believers that as a stomach is destroyed along with the food, so will God destroy you (the temple of the Holy Spirit) if you let things like sexual immorality abide in you through unrepentant practice of sin. So if a prostitute invites the Holy Spirit into her life but continues in sexual immorality without repentance, she's still going to hell if she dies.

Being human, having this fruit of knowledge, is a barrier to the divine. "Sin" and "guilt" are distractions - if I am lusting after a woman on the street, I am missing the eternal truth of the beauty and cosmic "whatever you call it" around me, because I am stuck in petty human knowledge and desire, most of it driven by ego. If I steal to get a better life, or am jealous, or envy, or any of those ten commandments, I am missing a point somewhere. If I do not love, I am missing the divine within me. It's not that these are sins to be judged, they are barriers to seeing what is already in us. A sin is a barrier.

This view of sin can only comfortably exist under free grace theology, a doctrine that is held by small minority of Christians. According to wikipedia here are the groups that do: "[Free grace theology's] prominent present-day expressions are the Grace Evangelical Society, the Free Grace Alliance, the Plymouth Brethren, and the local churches".The vast majority of Christians treat sin much more seriously, so we should do our homework to see if this is taught in the bible.

I contend that the concept of sinning only mattering in the OT but getting a free pass in the New Covenant is a doctrine that comes straight from the pit of hell and will result in the damnation of many well meaning Christians. I was once one of those who used to think I was so lucky to be born in the "age of grace". Why if I was living in OT times, I'd probably be screwed because so many of the Israelites probably ended up in the fiery side of Sheol due to rebellion and practicing of sin. But read Ezekiel 18 and you will realize that God is the same yesterday today and forever.

That said, I am still grateful for living in this time. The difference between the OT and the NT is that the Holy Spirit was sent down from heaven! This was made possible by the ascension of our wonderful Savior Jesus ("unless I go up, he cannot come down"). So make sure you take advantage of this unique opportunity by inviting the Holy Spirit to dwell in you after repenting. If you read the OT you'll realize God's spirit was not as easily made available to the Israelites. For example, God only sent his Spirit upon Moses initially, ignoring everyone else. (A good book on this part of the trinity that many ignore to their detriment is "The Forgotten God" by Francis Chan.)

So in Romans 6 and in numerous other places spread throughout his epistles, Paul warns that practicing sin leads to death. The way the word "death" is understood in the LCs is just something you wanna avoid-- which we all agree with. But back in the LCs we never pinpointed exactly what "death" means in the context of the new covenant.

So if you do your homework, it's not that hard to figure out. Jesus uses the words "death" many times in sayings like "let the dead bury the dead but as for you go proclaim the kingdom of God". So we know he was referring to people who were physically alive as "dead", because how else can you bury someone unless you are breathing? But then in other places, Jesus calls those who are physically dead as "sleeping"!

Remember when Lazarus died? Jesus told his disciples to chill out cause his friend was only sleeping. That tripped them up and Jesus eventually had to tell them plainly that he'd died, but they'd figure out later what he meant. We all know later that Lazarus resurrected from the dead-- so Jesus was really giving us an idea that he doesn't use the word "death" lightly, and he avoids that term for people who are dead but will resurrect again choosing to say "sleeping" instead.

So now you've probably realized what "death" really means. It's a euphemism for the only "death" that matters in the timeline of eternity. And that's spiritual death which is the absence of eternal life. It's the *THE REAL DEATH* you want to avoid at all costs: an unhappy ending consisting of spending eternity in either hell or outer darkness.

So try reading the New Testament again and substitute words like death and destruction in your mind with "hell" or "outer darkness for eternity" and your worldview will be rocked as mine was.

The reason those like Paul avoided using the word "hell" directly was because it would have been impolite. Back then "hell" was an uncomfortable word to use as it is today. Only Jesus had no qualms saying that taboo word when he warned believers against it.

So Paul and other writers thought up clever euphemisms to replace the usage of "hell". Here are the ones that come up the top of my head.

1. Death
2. Destruction
3. Believing in vain
4. Christ will profit you nothing
5. Burn up
6. Perishing
7. Destroy
8. "I've labored in vain"
9. Disqualified
10. Wrath of God
11. "Vengeance is mine!"

If you are scared for your salvation after reading this or think God is really cruel, please find my testimony somewhere in this thread. Or go to my blog here: http://nodustybunnies.blogspot.com/2...-out-free.html