Local Church Discussions - View Single Post - Is Repentance and Taking the Cross Necessary for Salvation?

Cal · 12-19-2013, 07:13 AM

bearbear,

The whole problem with your thesis is that it implies that ultimately salvation is by works, that it is performance that matters.

Theologians have been around and around about this for centuries. Although we should do our own homework, most likely you are not going to improve on the overall consensus, which is this:

Salvation is by faith, not by works. You cannot perform your way into eternal life. Period.

However, true faith is accompanied by works. Just how much is not clear. But just trying to define it implies that you believe works are needed for salvation, which the Bible flatly denies.

But what about James 2:20, you ask. Again theologians have addressed that. The conclusion is James is saying that without works, faith may not be present. He is not saying, without works salvation is not present. Simply put, works do not achieve salvation, they indicate it.

Your formula is: Faith + Works = Salvation.

The actual formula is: Faith = Salvation + Works

It is not that without works you cannot be saved. It is that without works you may not be saved. Note the difference. Again, then the question becomes how much or what quality of works. If you say to the level of obedience then no one is or has ever been saved because we are all disobedient. In the end, we all rely on grace and forgiveness. Our works just cannot be good enough.

The bottom line is if you are saved you will have a heart to please God, and will attempt to. There will be some evidence in your life that you have faith. In other words, you will have "works." Even the backslidden seek to serve God in some manner, even if it's just in trying to be on balance nicer than they might. Are those works "enough?" Enough for what? In any case, it's not for me to say.

Again, no need to reinvent the wheel.

12-19-2013, 07:13 AM	#11
Cal Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: USA Posts: 4,333	Re: Is Repentance and Taking the Cross Necessary for Salvation? bearbear, The whole problem with your thesis is that it implies that ultimately salvation is by works, that it is performance that matters. Theologians have been around and around about this for centuries. Although we should do our own homework, most likely you are not going to improve on the overall consensus, which is this: Salvation is by faith, not by works. You cannot perform your way into eternal life. Period. However, true faith is accompanied by works. Just how much is not clear. But just trying to define it implies that you believe works are needed for salvation, which the Bible flatly denies. But what about James 2:20, you ask. Again theologians have addressed that. The conclusion is James is saying that without works, faith may not be present. He is not saying, without works salvation is not present. Simply put, works do not achieve salvation, they indicate it. Your formula is: Faith + Works = Salvation. The actual formula is: Faith = Salvation + Works It is not that without works you cannot be saved. It is that without works you may not be saved. Note the difference. Again, then the question becomes how much or what quality of works. If you say to the level of obedience then no one is or has ever been saved because we are all disobedient. In the end, we all rely on grace and forgiveness. Our works just cannot be good enough. The bottom line is if you are saved you will have a heart to please God, and will attempt to. There will be some evidence in your life that you have faith. In other words, you will have "works." Even the backslidden seek to serve God in some manner, even if it's just in trying to be on balance nicer than they might. Are those works "enough?" Enough for what? In any case, it's not for me to say. Again, no need to reinvent the wheel.