Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Debelak
Jane:
I will ponder further your second point and respond soon. I just don't see the first point. I don't think a translation of "to hold" enables the distinction between the situation of the two churches. I don't see the implications you do. It says "thou has there them that hold the doctrine..." Other translations say, "there are some who hold..." and still others, "you have there those who hold..."
Why not just say, "I have a few things against you: that you hold to the doctrine..." - similar to the construction and broad scope of the admonition to the Ephesions: "You [all of them - the whole church] have left your first love..." The constrcution of "you have some/those/ones..." doesn't carry the same scope - i.e. that they all - each and every one - held to the doctrine.
Nevertheless, the Spirit held them accountable. Thus, I think the distinction is more about the nature of the doctrine versus the enticing of Jezabel in Thyatira.
Still, I just don't see the distinction, yet. I found Matt's description of the teaching of Balaam compelling. But it could be condensed down to: the teaching was something that enticed the children of Israel. But put that way, I have an even harder time distinguishing it from the enticing of Jezabel.
Thoughts?
Peter
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The one thing we know, Peter, is that God doesn't hold us accountable if we are not accountable. If the Spirit didn't hold them responsible in some way for the "them" in this church, then He would have not required them to repent. At this point, I don't see another way to look at it. (The verse actually says "you hold them there" that hold the doctrine ...). This seems simple enough to me. They clearly didn't hate this doctrine like God did. They should not have had such doctrine among them in the church there. It couldn't have remained there if it hadn't been accepted.
May I ask why the scope of accountability is important to you? The simple thing is to take this letter as one written to individuals in a church calling each of them to repent. If I am guilty of practicing/teaching the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes, I need to repent.
I personally have never been on the end demanding others to submit to me, but I have been on the end of submitting to others absolutely. I have repented for this. I have set my heart to submit absolutely to only one person, Jesus. That takes care of the problem for me.
Thankful Jane