[Cal]

Originally Posted by Nell

Igzy: I'm not sure what you mean by this statement.

I'll make a comparison to this forum and the BARM. The BARM is an apologetics forum and I don't think they ever understood our desire to help people, and that this is the most sincere form of apologetics (my opinion). They seemed to want intellectual doctrinal debate without the people factor to "muddy" the water. I don't know this to be true, but it seems to me to be true, and that's the reason I post here instead. To "win" a debate in that arena is simply a "hello win column." To really win would be for someone who's hurting to be able to find the Lord again.

One thing you might need to understand is that some people cannot be ulitmately "helped" until their minds are convinced. Men tend to be that way. I know I am. Much of the problem with ex-LC men is that they hold conflicting concepts in one mind, causing inner conflict, the simplest being the "I'm supposed to be the the LC/I can't be in the LC" dichotomy. These people need emotional support, but they are not going to be set right until their minds are set right. Emotions are persuaded by sentiment; the mind is persuaded by facts. A solid logical argument, inspired of course by the Holy Spirit, goes a long way in these cases.

I'm not suspicious of "intellect" per se. I'm suspicious of "knowledge" of spiritual matters which is attributed to "culture", or "rugged individualism" or even "Texas individualism" or some other "influence" that in effect, denies the power of the Holy Spirit and it's working in our lives. The tendency has been to discredit some spiritual realities because these matters are looked down upon by society and dismissed as little more than "nonsense". For example, the very existance of this little icon: discredits or minimizes the spiritual reality of the spirit world. That's the "intellect" I'm talking about.

I believe God uses many things and meshes with many things that you might call "earthly" or "natural" or even "cultural." For example, familial and romantic love, team spirit, qualities of leadership, music, community, dedication, concentration, discipline, the list goes on and on. These things alone are not enough, but the Holy Spirit uses them. I no longer believe in a Holy Spirit that never works with the things of man's psychology or sociology. In fact, the more I go on the more I realize that's primarily the sphere in which he works.

Igzy: Which "topic" are you talking about precisely? I'm not being coy, but this thread has been all over the place and I'd like to know specifically what you are talking about.

Idolatry as practiced by the leaders, resulting in the spiritual abuse of the flock.

Nell

I have no problem with such a discussion. I would just suggest the case be made with evidence supporting accusations. Make the case. Like I said, the challenge is to turn ideas into words that convince, of course with the Holy Spirit's help.