[Thankful Jane]

Originally Posted by Igzy

It's seems to me that talk of the influence of Satan and demons can get a bit redundant. What is mean is, assuming we all recognize that Satan is the ultimate source of evil and that demons are more or less in cahoots with him, then it's sort of obvious that all error in some way originates with him and/or them.

It's sort of like dealing with physical things falling and always feeling the need to mention that they were influenced by gravity. No one says, "That vase tipped off the table and gravity pulled it to the floor." It goes without saying that gravity pulled the vase down, which is why no one mentions it. The real problem is the vase is busted.

In like manner, if all moral error originates with Satan, then that goes without saying, and we can get down to the real business of dealing with the error. There's really no need to remind people over and over that they've been somehow influenced by Satan or demons, unless the goal is to try to shock them into changing their ways.

I'm not saying it's never appropriate, just that it seems to me the point should be to convince someone of their error, not of the source of their error, since the source, ultimately, is always the same.

In another post I said I was willing to drop talking about demons and evil spirits. Others have continued to post in this vein, so I want to just say again, that since this topic seems to have really upset the apple cart, I am refraining from talking about demons or evil spirits, etc. If I find it necessary will just refer to “the devil” or “the enemy.”

I don’t want to detract from what I am beginning to see that is significant about understanding idolatry.

Concerning idolatry, of course, there is the idea that anything we put before God in heart and mind can be an idol. There is no question about that. But, could we set that aside understanding aside for now and consider something else?

In the O. T., idolatry wasn’t just something practiced by individuals alone in their individual lives. Idolatry also referred to the religious systems of worship and service that existed.

The book of Revelation refers to “Mystery Babylon the Great, Mother of the harlots of the earth...” which appears to be pointing back to Babylonian worship and idolatry of antiquity. It can be historically proven that many of the characteristics found in this idolatrous religious system have found their way into the worship of God’s people in both Old and New Testaments. Hence, the cry, “Come out of her my people” occurs both in the Old and New Testaments (Jer. 51:6-7; Rev. 18:4).

I no longer think that the cry to come out of her means that all of God’s people must leave any form of organized religion, as I did when in the LC; however, I do think it is a serious warning that there is something we need to come out of.

I can elaborate with some support for my current belief, but for now just let me state it simply:

One of the chief characteristics of idolatrous religious systems is a hierarchy whose structure and practices bring people under its control. In other words, an idolatrous religious system has two kinds of people: 1) those who usurp God’s place by believing they speak for God and have the right to tell others what to do, and actually do so 2) those who are willing do what they are told to do, even if it violates scripture and their conscience. Because of these behaviors, people participating in idolatrous systems cannot say that they serve God and Him alone.

I believe that God calls us out of participating in either of these behaviors. We are called to be followers of the Lamb and to follow Him wherever He goes.

To see whether or not we have “come out of her,” we can ask ourselves two questions: 1) as a believer do I act in the place of God over another human being; do I believe I am supposed to direct them and tell them what to do? 2) as a believer do I look to God for direction or do I look to others who direct me and tell me what to do, submitting to what they tell me, even if it violates scripture and conscience?

If I can answer both of these questions, “no” then the call to “come out of her” my people does not apply to me. (i.e., it is possible to be a part of what we so affectionately refer to as “organized Christianity” J and not be in “her.”) But if I have to answer either of these questions “yes” then the call to come out of her applies to me.

As I said, I can elaborate further on why I have made certain statements in the above, but for now I will leave it at this.

Thankful Jane