Preface:
The other posts to this thread since last night are interesting and good. I'm sticking with another theme (idolatry) a bit longer. Just call me little drummer boy. I've got my one little drum right now and I'm still banging away. I wrote something last night and didn't post it. I knew I didn't have the utterance for what I was trying to say yet. I woke up this morning with some more light on the matter.
I am going to say it. Hopefully, I can share what I have been
seeing. I'm sharing it just as insight and nothing more or less.
Hope, I am not on the attack, but I am using your words as example to try and reframe and redraw a line which I believe you have set in the wrong place. I'm not proclaiming to have set it in the right place. I'm just going to try and uncover the core issues that help us know how to set the line in the right place. I may or may not get it in this attempt.
The Dividing Line on the "Vision" and Idolatry
By means of example, Hope has started to set a dividing line on the issue of idolatry. In summary, it goes like this: If you attached yourself to a group, a ministry or an allegiance to a man (i.e. WL) as some did then you were entering into a level of idolatry. Here is the quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hope
The vision was the big thing for me from the very beginning. I did not attach myself to a group or a ministry. This was difficult to explain to friends and family at the time. Everyone assumes you are attracted to personalities. James Barber always stressed that his vision was a man and that he followed WL just like Timothy followed Paul. For James, it was not Christ who is our life and the church as the Body of Christ but the ministry of WL. Benson Phillips had a very similar view. WL was God's man of faith and power for this hour. Thus, he attached himself to WL. Ray Graver was similar to Benson but with an even stronger view that included rendering service to the man of faith and power for this hour and seeking to duplicate that man in life and work. They were very successful in bringing this view into many of the local churches. Matt, here is where your premise of idolatry comes in.
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When you set the line between that which is idolatrous and that which is not idolatrous in the way you describe, then it leaves room for the following idea:
A. There is a
good "vision" that is okay.
B. There is a
bad "vision" that is not okay.
Now, we have touched on the "vision" and I believe others have rightly agreed that the "vision" was
something other than Christ alone. I believe you are seeing this
something other than Christ alone as the attachment to a group, a ministry, or a man.
I am not seeing it that way.
I am seeing the
something other than Christ alone to include an ideal, a concept... A "vision"... even a
good "vision".
Putting some more meat on the "vision"
Here is what I have come to understand about the "vision". In simple terms, the "vision" was a vision of the
practical expression of the oneness of the Body of Christ on the earth through the testimony of a group of saints gathering together on the ground of locality.
In my mind, this is where the idolatry lies. I won't be able to fully explain my last statement in this post, but let's go to the Word before anyone gets too upset with me for such an extreme view!
Digging down on Idolatry
I've studied the issue of idolatry on a number of occasions. The first time was when I was about 17-18 years old. I read through Kings and Chronicles and was struck by all of the idolatry. It was everywhere. I looked up idolatry and read the definition. It was talking about graven images. I immediately thought about the Catholic Church. They had idols, but then in my little brain I had a second thought...
If idolatry was so widespread and pervasive among the children of Israel, I don't think it just went away or ended up in the Catholic Church alone.
This was a thought that
opened a question for me with the Lord that hasn't closed even unto this day.
If you study the OT you will find that the definition of idolatry remains consistent. It's about physical objects that are images of things in heaven above, on the earth or in the sea. The definition doesn't really change throughout the OT.
So, how in the world can I (me, Matt) change the definition to point to an ideal, a concept... A vision?
Here is how. Paul did it, not me. Paul moved the idolatry from a physical object to the condition of one's heart. He tied it to covetousness. It's a pretty big leap, but a valid one.
Ephesians 5:5
ASV - For this ye know of a surety, that no fornicator, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.
KJV - For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
NASB 95 - For this you know with certainty, that no immoral or impure person or covetous man, who is an idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.
Let's get a reminder of "covetousness". In this case it comes from the following Greek word.
Strongs 4123 - [pleonektes /pleh-on-ek-tace/] n m. From 4119 and 2192; Four occurrences; AV translates as 'covetous' four times. 1 one eager to have more, esp. what belongs to others. 2 greedy of gain, covetous.
Here I will pause and give Hope a reminder... I'm going to use the most object example I know of with confirmable facts/deeds.
Hope, do you remember Benson in front of his world map? Look at the territory that he surveyed and decided that he was going to go after in the name of the Lord. Think about it again in light of what I am saying.
Benson attached himself to Lee and the LSM because he was already acting in idolatry. He did not commit idolatry because he attached himself to a group, a ministry or a man other than Christ. The idolatry was already there. Benson wanted something. Benson had already had a "vision" of leading a worldwide christian organization. The LC, the LSM and Lee were a means to an end... The satisfaction of Benson's covetousness for something other than Christ.
Now, I know I am speaking judgmentally. God forgive me. I'm judging with the same judgment that I have been judged. I've committed idolatry too. I wanted something and set my heart on it. In His mercy, God stopped me. Thank God.
Short-circuited Conclusion
I've said enough for now. I hope I am opening a window for at least some people to look through. I think I will need to say more, but for now I am going to add one more passage to this post and stop.
Titus 1:5-16 (NASB95)
5 For this reason I left you in Crete, that you would set in order what remains and appoint elders in every city as I directed you, 6 namely, if any man is above reproach, the husband of one wife, having children who believe, not accused of dissipation or rebellion. 7 For the overseer must be above reproach as God’s steward, not self-willed, not quick-tempered, not addicted to wine, not pugnacious, not fond of sordid gain, 8 but hospitable, loving what is good, sensible, just, devout, self-controlled, 9 holding fast the faithful word which is in accordance with the teaching, so that he will be able both to exhort in sound doctrine and to refute those who contradict. 10 For there are many rebellious men, empty talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision, 11 who must be silenced because they are upsetting whole families, teaching things they should not teach for the sake of sordid gain. 12 One of themselves, a prophet of their own, said, 'Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons.' 13 This testimony is true. For this reason reprove them severely so that they may be sound in the faith, 14 not paying attention to Jewish myths and commandments of men who turn away from the truth. 15 To the pure, all things are pure; but to those who are defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure, but both their mind and their conscience are defiled. 16 They profess to know God, but by their deeds they deny Him, being detestable and disobedient and worthless for any good deed.
Matt
P.S. I am committing an apparent error of logic if this post is viewed in isolation when I use "idolater" vs. "idolatry" somewhat interchangeably. If someone sees it and questions it, I can prove out in the verses in Ephesians 5 that what I am saying is still valid.