[OBW]

You sort of did let Cahn speak for you. You were sort of overwhelmed by that was going on inside and said you couldn't really describe it. So you gave us this link. So whatever it was you were trying to say, you really did leave it to him to describe.

Now since then, you have been more direct in speaking for yourself. But the continued references back to his speech and book are, to me, evidence of a level of misdirection. Not that you are misdirecting. But have been misdirected.

The last time a government sort of like ours allowed too much coziness with its preferred religion, the result was Pilgrims and others leaving for a new place. I'm all for praying. Even for the nation. And for repenting.

But the nation is not going to repent. It is a melting pot of Christians of many different kinds, including many who claim Christianity, but it is social, not religious. It includes those who claim different gods. And those who claim no god but themselves.

The nation was founded in such a way that many whose lives are centered around what Christian morality would call a moral sin are instead allowed to live in the way they chose. And it is the allowance of those lives that continues to allow us to live as we see fit. At some level, this nation is living as each man thinks is right in his own eyes. A familiar phrase. If this were Israel after Joshua, it would be the cause of times of punishment, followed by a rescue at the leadership of a Judge.

But this is not Israel. It is simply a pretty good kingdom of the world. It actually allows us as Christians to live extremely peaceful lives. Maybe we would be better off with less peace, less tolerance for us, and then have to prove with our living that there is something worthy about the God we serve. Instead, we argue that some book that the world has no interest in grants us some kind of right to a better nation.

It does not. It promises us hardship and persecution. We aren't even close to being persecuted. Unless you think the inability to force someone to listen to your prayer counts as persecution. That the inability to make abortion illegal is persecution.

Not saying that these things are your concerns. But it is what I hear around me constantly. It seems that it is the sins of the nation that caused it to be attacked in such a way. If that is the case, why are virtually every other nation of the earth not entirely destroyed? Aren't they even worse?

Or are we now back to actually accepting Cahn's argument that America is being judged like Israel for its sins. A nation with no contract with God being treated like a historical nation that did have such a contract.

This is a very ethnocentric (and egocentric) position. And one without precedence. Since someone suggested a parallel with Nineveh, where was the prophet before the judgment? Even Isaiah 9:10 was not just the result of the Northern kingdom presuming that their punishment was not from God. They had prophets speaking to them for years.

In our case, we only have the Word of God being spoken to His people. And we, like all Christians everywhere, are tasked with living a life that is worthy of the gospel and being ready to speak if asked what it is that is different. No charges to indicate that we have any ability to withhold the social and political currents of the world. Yes, we are to pray for peace. But the nations we inhabit are not imbued with special blessing for any reason. (There is even some consideration that the references to being a friend of Israel providing a benefit is suspect since that Israel no longer exists.) On what basis do we say otherwise outside of a self-declared covenant with God (that those at the time would possibly laugh at the idea that it was any such a thing).

If God spoke to us through the events of 9/11 and others like it, it should only be to stop trusting in chariots and horses — in kingdoms and governments. Instead, trust in the name of the Lord our God. He is our rock and salvation. America is not. The alleged "Christian" history of the nation is not.

If there is a message in the events of the past 13 years, that is what I would find in it. And to some degree I do find that message there. But I do not need to dwell on 9/11, or the direction that the nation and government seem to be going with respect to so many things to continue to turn to God. That is my need. America is not my need. I appreciate it greatly. I would like it to be even better. But whether it is or is not is not what I have been charged with as a Christian. It is for me to live a life according to the Spirit. The meat of that thread is much more important to my life than this one.