[Indiana]

I have been trying to get back to answer questions. What I have responded to took many hours, although it might not appear so. I have been sick(not terribly) and also weak, not eating much, (which is how I got sick) and have been a bit too much on edge in what I have said; but I have wanted to continue with answering questions, as these of yours, Igzy, about Witness Lee's teachings, which I might still be able to get to.

• MOTA -- Made him unaccountable. [i.e., minister of the age, ed.]
• Extreme views of spiritual authority -- led to abuse and control.
• Extreme view of separation from "the world" -- isolated people, making them vulnerable to suggestion. Closed door on legitimate options and leading.
• Belief in one organizationally unified eldership per city to whom all should submit. -- More oppression and closing the door on reform and fresh starts.
• Declaring his movement the unique move of God -- Again, locking in a following and limiting options.
• Becoming God -- Confuses one's own nature with God himself.

I had started this thread, saying, “There has been much discussion concerning Witness Lee’s worth as a teacher.” Later, I brought up his ground of oneness teaching. I said, “I wonder, Igzy, why you did not refer to my points in post #19, which were in response to the pertinent forum questions: 1) Why there was a blessing of the Spirit in the early days of the church life; and 2) What effect Witness Lee had on that blessing in the local churches in those days.

I continued,

"References by me in #19 to the ground of oneness were concerning the early church life in America; not current day Local Church life on a path of deviation from the earlier days. Your posts distracted people from my reference point to thoughts of current day LC misuse of the teaching of the ground; John Myer's thoughts about the ground; and a bit of mockery of me, with advice that I should try to move forward and not be in a pining mode for the past. Do you want to address the points I made? Or evade them?" _end

OBW shared something to which you responded, “I know OBW has offered that the source of Recovery blessing was not Lee, but the commitment of the members. That is plausible. But it doesn't explain why the blessing often seemed strongest when we were sitting at the feet of Lee. Can anyone explain?”

Then I explained. And, AW responded,


"It seems to me that Indiana is trying to tie the "Lord's blessing" in the early years of the LC system in America to the ground of locality. – AW

“This is right AW. I was tying the blessing to the ground of oneness taught by Nee and Lee and practiced in the 60s and early 70s in America. This I shared in response to the question on the forum 1) Why there was a blessing of the Spirit in the early days of the church life.

"I began with explaining the history, saying, "the American brothers were in the process of a recovery that began with Watchman Nee in China when he was a student seeking the truth of the proper ground for coming together as Christians. He and other young brothers could not find scriptural ground for the denominations in their city and began to meet on the ground that they were one with every true believer in the city. They were compelled by their conscience that they could not meet in any other way."

Q. Was this a correct determination of these brothers before their Lord? If so, should our position be any different today?


"Witness Lee a few years later joined them, although he had a successful work going on in Northern China. He could see that blessing was with Nee and his ministry from reports he had heard and the monthly publication by Nee he read, called, The Christian. He was convicted by the truth he found in Nee’s ministry, including meeting on a proper ground of oneness."

Q. Do you agree that both Nee and Lee met on the ground that "we are one with all true believers in our city" (in early 1930s). Was this ground upon which they met right, and scriptural? That is, were they right to say there is no ground given in the Bible for denominations,


I said,
"I believe their positioning was proper and right with God's heart; but it can only be carried out if in attitude they remain inclusive of others as was these brothers intention in the beginning. And, principally, those in the 60s and early 70s in the lc met on such a ground and blessing came to them in much more abundance than if they had not been meeting on a ground of oneness. Seeking believers were being added to the churches around the country and claiming "we're home!", and this was due to the New Testament reality of coming up from Babylon to Jerusalem, "to the place which the Lord thy God has chosen."

Will you come back to this, Igzy, and answer clearly before those members you are concerned about; and before forum members; and before God and all others looking in if you believe these brothers’ took an appropriate stand in their city. This is important for you as an administrator of this forum to state if you concede that this was the right stand. I mean without evasiveness, Igzy; and, if you believe they took the correct stand that God could bless, should a different stand be taken today? Was the principle right? without concerns and references for the problematic side of taking such a stand.


You were also evasive or didn't touch this important question

What effect did Witness Lee have on that blessing in the local churches in those days? I shared about this and numbered the paragraphs. You skipped right over these points and later dismissed both Nee and Lee outright as to the impact they had in the local churches and the blessing the churches received under their care and oversight.

2. When Lee came to the U. S., he brought three decades of experience with him, two decades under Nee. He saw much in God’s word; had valuable church life experience; and developed his own ministry. These brothers, Nee and Lee, were outside of organized religion and God blessed them to meet as one on a ground of oneness in a city. God did not agree either with denominations that slice up the Body of Christ into different sections, and pastors shaking hands over the fence.

3. When Witness Lee met up with seekers of the Lord in the U. S., it was he who had the weighty background, and they asked him to meet with them. He naturally became their leader and his ministry began to be released. Regardless of who he learned from, he saw things spiritually in the Bible and could minister them with profound effect among the seeking ones who were his recipients in the early days of the church life in America.

4. There were no pews with a pastor but every saint could function and was encouraged to speak. Like Moses, Lee desired that “you all would prophesy (speak forth Christ).” What a recovery! What a tremendous help to all the churches as they grew and spread around the country, and what a contrast with what we still see today in the best of meeting places, with only a paid pastor doing the speaking. (It has been 12 years since I met in the Local Churches and I have been to many other gatherings of believers. None had access to the weightiness of ministry and decades of experience in their lineage to help usher them into a church life as the local churches did in the U. S. when Witness Lee arrived.)

5. I think Witness Lee had much to do with the harmony among the churches, through conferences, fellowship with leaders, publications, and by his own godly example, as Igzy alluded to. He instilled confidence for a saint’s moving ahead in the local churches, and also hope for the churches and their future, which served to stabilize the churches. His close relationship with Nee for about two decades was a big factor for the confidence and hope the saints had. In other words, the local churches in the U. S. had a history and lineage from China and Taiwan to immediately benefit them and receive blessing of the Spirit from, especially with Lee here with them. Indeed, when they moved to Los Angeles to be near him from around the country, revival came. It came from the lineage; the product of that lineage, Witness Lee; and their heart to meet on a ground of oneness with other believers.

6. Songs poured out of the saints as they were being built up in their localities year after year. They made the songs up themselves from their experience and enjoyment of Christ, and the word and ministry they were blessed to be under. The reason Ohio lost his desire for cigarettes is that he was transferred, solidly, into another realm with Christ as his life and God’s house as his home and dwelling place. It was a place of absolute separation from the world and habitation with God. “They shall be abundantly satisfied with the fatness of thy house; and thou shalt make them drink of the river of thy pleasures.” (Ps. 36:8)

7. We were inspired by Old Testament exhortation from Nehemiah to “rise up and build.” God’s people received this call to rise up, to go up, and build, or rebuild, the temple. There was every indication that we were exactly what we were told we were and that we were in a recovery of the truth of God’s word, experience of Christ as our life, and in a church of God’s glory, meeting on a proper ground of oneness. For there, on the proper ground, “the Lord commanded the blessing, even life forevermore.” (Ps. 133)

8. And we had the leadership to open up the way for us. I think Witness Lee and the ground of oneness teaching and practice he brought to the U. S. were key to the amount of blessing of the Spirit received in the local churches. Of course, his teaching on the human spirit and enjoying Christ as our life for the building up of the church were crucial to our experience of the blessing of the Spirit in those days. Many songs came out concerning these experiences, teachings, and practices and filled the supplement pages.

9. But first, we needed to come out of the divisions to be on the right ground for meeting, and for blessing.

"The rest of it--such as that Nee and Lee were the bellwethers of "The Lords's Recovery," or that God was vindicating the local ground, or that everything else was Babylon from which we were to go up, go up, etc-- is really just extreme speculation. You can believe it if you want, but there is absolutely no reason to expect anyone else to." _Igzy No reason, Igzy? There is plenty of reason and the witness in my spirit and in the spirit of many others, and, I believe, deep in you.