[alwayslearning]

Originally Posted by Thankful Jane

One of the reasons I stopped posting on this forum was because of straw man arguments...I (speaking as the person who started this thread) never said (or thought) that I believed we were a “Christian nation” that was blessed and had lost its way and needed to get back to where it was. I also never said (nor thought) many other things that have been argued against (by Alwayslearning and OBW). I did not hear a “Christian nation’ message from Cahn. Clearly, Alwayslearning and OBW did, from what they heard (or partially heard). In my opinion, they do him a disservice by not properly representing his actual message in its entirety and instead presenting a distortion of it.

I think your argument about straw man arguments is a straw man argument!

Here is what my response was to Cahn's talk:

"I was able to listen to his entire talk this morning. I don't think his passion can be disputed however I disagree with his underlying premise i.e. America was once a blessed nation because it was founded on eternal and heavenly principles and consecrated to God/Jesus and is losing (or has lost) that blessing under God's judgment for our sinful ways. And that the Twin Tower attack and more recent economic turn down are signs of this judgment. I think this is a very selective view of American history..."

In the post (#18) after mine NeitherFirstnorLast introduced the idea that America was a Christian nation and along the way in this thread others have expressed support for this view. I have expressed disagreement with this view as has OBW - which I think we're allowed to do. That's all - people in an open forum chit chatting back and forth.

Originally Posted by Thankful Jane

As for civil governments and God, I take my view of them from Paul:

Originally Posted by Thankful Jane

I Tim. [2:1] I exhort therefore, first of all, that supplications, prayers, intercessions, thanksgivings, be made for all men; [2] for kings and all that are in high place; that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and gravity. [3] This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; [4] who would have all men to be saved, and come to the knowledge of the truth.

This was written when the pagan Roman Caesers ruled and actively persecuted Christians unto death and yet Paul said to pray for this government not start a Revolution. It could be argued that the Founding Fathers should have followed Paul's admonishment and pray for King George III since he was not interfering in their practice of religion in the colonies. (The colonists were interfering with each other in their practice of religion.) But the Founders were interested in economics and that was the impetus for the Revolution.

Originally Posted by Thankful Jane

A large majority of the founders valued the teachings of the Bible and of Christ and were influenced by them in shaping the civil government they established, with its Constitution.

Yes the Judeo-Christian tradition did influence the Founding Fathers. Has anybody on this forum denied this? They were also influenced by the Greco-Roman and European Enlightenment traditions and I have already listed some of the items that came from these traditions.

Originally Posted by Thankful Jane

Today, these founding values and principles, those who espouse them, and even God Himself are under open verbal and legislative attack. We are in danger of losing in a big way (from many different fronts) what Paul told us to pray for regarding civil government, and what I personally believe God gave us in answer to such prayers.

Personally I think of most people on earth Christian's in America are free to live tranquil and quiet lives in all godliness and gravity and I don't see this changing in the foreseeable future. More or less us Christians here are like spoiled brats whining about how "Caesar" slighted us. We should go to China to see what it is like to really live under an oppressive government. (And yet somehow the church is thriving there!)