[Thankful Jane]

One of the reasons I stopped posting on this forum was because of straw man arguments. These are fruitless and exhausting and I have no interest in participating in them. As one who always has to revisit the meaning of such terms as "straw man" that are used in argumentation, I'm offering here what Wikipedia says (for others like me who forget or don't know):


The Straw Man fallacy is committed when a person simply ignores a person's actual position and substitutes a distorted, exaggerated or misrepresented version of that position. This sort of "reasoning" has the following pattern:

1. Person A has position X.
2. Person B presents position Y (which is a distorted version of X).
3. Person B attacks position Y.
4. Therefore X is false/incorrect/flawed.

This sort of "reasoning" is fallacious because attacking a distorted version of a position simply does not constitute an attack on the position itself.

I (speaking as the person who started this thread) never said (or thought) that I believed we were a “Christian nation” that was blessed and had lost its way and needed to get back to where it was. I also never said (nor thought) many other things that have been argued against (by Alwayslearning and OBW). I did not hear a “Christian nation’ message from Cahn. Clearly, Alwayslearning and OBW did, from what they heard (or partially heard). In my opinion, they do him a disservice by not properly representing his actual message in its entirety and instead presenting a distortion of it.


In the opening post, I didn’t try to repeat or analyze what Cahn said. I simply said it greatly affected me. I didn’t explain why it did. I thought I should just let his message speak for itself, as I still do, so I posted a link. Because of all the subsequent posts stating what Cahn was saying (as if it was fact), I will now say, in summary, what I heard. I heard a voice of warning, of God calling people (His people, mainly) to repent. I heard a voice of one crying in the wilderness--make straight the way of the Lord. I also heard the name of Jesus lifted high by a Jewish brother. I also realized there is a very real possibility that God is speaking through signs, such as some Cahn described. Some heard similarly. Others didn't hear this at all. Some couldn't even finish listening to him. So, I say let each man be persuaded in his own mind.

As for civil governments and God, I take my view of them from Paul:

I Tim. [2:1] I exhort therefore, first of all, that supplications, prayers, intercessions, thanksgivings, be made for all men; [2] for kings and all that are in high place; that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and gravity. [3] This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; [4] who would have all men to be saved, and come to the knowledge of the truth.


Paul said it is “good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior” that those in authority in civil governments should provide/maintain an environment where people can live tranquilly in all godliness and gravity because God would have all men be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth (which implies people could be free to speak the truth of the gospel.)

Our founding fathers set up a government that afforded people the opportunity to lead such godly lives. The government they formed also provided an environment which allowed people the freedom to speak and hear and come to the knowledge of the truth. (I would consider that fact to be a blessing.) A large majority of the founders valued the teachings of the Bible and of Christ and were influenced by them in shaping the civil government they established, with its Constitution. They spoke openly about God and His relationship to man. They prayed openly concerning their hope and intent for the new government. (Isn’t it possible that such a government came into being as God’s answer to the many prayers of foregone believers that were in line with Paul’s admonition in I Tim 2:1-3?)

Today, these founding values and principles, those who espouse them, and even God Himself are under open verbal and legislative attack. We are in danger of losing in a big way (from many different fronts) what Paul told us to pray for regarding civil government, and what I personally believe God gave us in answer to such prayers. So, we best be praying fervently, not that we can have some kind of perfect, blessed, government or “Christian nation,” but that we can have a government that allows us to live tranquil and quiet lives in all godliness and gravity; that we can continue to have an environment where we can preach the gospel freely and men can be saved by the One who wants all men to be saved.

Time is short.

Thankful Jane