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NeitherFirstnorLast · 02-04-2013, 06:48 PM

Good evening Brother Igzy,

I understand, I think, what you're saying... and secularly speaking, what you are saying makes a lot of sense.

If Lee weren't a Christian leader, but was instead a CEO of a large multi-natonal conglomerate who had, on the one hand:

1) Made some poor business decisions in order to benefit his own family (nepotism).

2) Swindled some investors out of their investments, in order to cover the losses of his own company.

3) Maligned his competition in the market place, in order to gain more market share.

4) Black-balled employees who dissented from his decisions.

5) Increased his autonomous authority and greatly decreased his own accountability to his shareholders; becoming a defacto tyrant.

But who, on the other hand also:

6) Implemented radical new ideas that increased the wealth of the company.

7) Invested in R&D to develop new products to push his company to the forefront of it's market.

8) Gained market-share to greatly increase the profitability of his corporation.

9) Secured the loyalty of his employees to such an extent that he was able to reduce and even eliminate wages, increase work hours, and yet increase the workload of his employees.

10) Gained the hearts of his own employees to such an extent that when he died, no successor could be chosen; rather, only his previously handed down decisions and minutes from his meetings can be repeated and reiterated, for fear of losing the principles that made his company so strong.

...Such a CEO, were he uplifted to "sainthood" by some, and demonized by others, might indeed be someone we could cautiously learn from. Someone with whom we maybe could take the "balanced approach" you suggest.

But Lee was no CEO. Lee was a man who claimed to speak for God as his Oracle of this Age - and that being the case, we must use BIBLICAL, not secular principles, to judge how we ought to weigh his work.

And how are we to judge "Oracles"?

Jeremiah 23:28-40 "The prophet who has a dream may relate his dream, but let him who has My word speak My word in truth. What does straw have in common with grain?” declares the Lord. “Is not My word like fire?” declares the Lord, “and like a hammer which shatters a rock? Therefore behold, I am against the prophets,” declares the Lord, “who steal My words from each other. Behold, I am against the prophets,” declares the Lord, “who use their tongues and declare, ‘The Lord declares.’ Behold, I am against those who have prophesied false dreams,” declares the Lord, “and related them and led My people astray by their falsehoods and reckless boasting; yet I did not send them or command them, nor do they furnish this people the slightest benefit,” declares the Lord.
“Now when this people or the prophet or a priest asks you saying, ‘What is the oracle of the Lord?’ then you shall say to them, ‘What oracle?’ The Lord declares, ‘I will abandon you.’ Then as for the prophet or the priest or the people who say, ‘The oracle of the Lord,’ I will bring punishment upon that man and his household. Thus will each of you say to his neighbor and to his brother, ‘What has the Lord answered?’ or, ‘What has the Lord spoken?’ For you will no longer remember the oracle of the Lord, because every man’s own word will become the oracle, and you have perverted the words of the living God, the Lord of hosts, our God. Thus you will say to that prophet, ‘What has the Lord answered you?’ and, ‘What has the Lord spoken?’ For if you say, ‘The oracle of the Lord!’ surely thus says the Lord, ‘Because you said this word, “The oracle of the Lord!” I have also sent to you, saying, “You shall not say, ‘The oracle of the Lord!’”’ Therefore behold, I will surely forget you and cast you away from My presence, along with the city which I gave you and your fathers.I will put an everlasting reproach on you and an everlasting humiliation which will not be forgotten.”

The Lord was very clear, in the latter days False Prophets would come. In fact, every book of the New Testament (except one) speaks of False Prophets, and how we are to deal with them (as well as how the Lord deals with them).

You have likened, perhaps unintentionally, Lee to a "Baby" in your argument - either a "baby being thrown out with bathwater", or a "filthy baby". But babies are innocent. If they are dirty, it is because they haven't been properly cared for or watched. Lee was not innocent. Lee was not under the care of any others; he claimed authority for himself, and that has very serious repercussions before our Lord.

James 3:1 "Not many of you should presume to be teachers, my brothers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly."

Lee didn't claim to be a "Teacher" of the Word of God, but "THE" Teacher of the Word - and without his footnotes (private interpretations), he taught that one could not properly grow in faith or understanding. How seriously (strictly) will he be judged for that?

Further, what you acknowledge as being "genuinely Lee's" were parts of his teachings (interpretations) of the Word. But Jesus Christ our Lord never taught that full understanding of the Written Word was required for spiritual growth or salvation. On the contrary, Christ said that study of the Scriptures (apart from acceptance of Christ as He is - our LORD) was worthless:

John 5:39-44 "You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life. "I do not accept praise from men, but I know you. I know that you do not have the love of God in your hearts. I have come in my Father's name, and you do not accept me; but if someone else comes in his own name, you will accept him. How can you believe if you accept praise from one another, yet make no effort to obtain the praise that comes from the only God?"

Faith saves, not knowledge; and the kind of faith Christ told us he sought was "child-like" faith and repentance.

Matthew 18:3 "Then he said, "I tell you the truth, unless you turn from your sins and become like little children, you will never get into the Kingdom of Heaven."

So what is child-like faith, to the Israelite and a Father? Children in the Old Testament are commanded to "Honor their Father (and their mother)"; they know their place, they trust completely in their parents to care for them and meet their needs. They are content in all things with their parents provision, regardless of it's material worth. They love their parents with their whole heart, mind, soul and strength.

If Christ wanted us to know and understand His every Word (rather than simply trust and obey), then why did He say to His disciples:

John 16:12 "“I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now."

And if Christ wanted us to sift through the teachings of false teachers, to gleen what might have been "good' (right) about what they taught, then why did He say to us in His Word:

Titus 1:10-11 "For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers.... Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake."

Igzy, Christ didn't treat false teachers and false teachings with kid gloves. Over and over again the Word of God stresses that false teachers are damned by God, and that we must beware of them.

Steve, you have likened Witness Lee to David. There are many, many differences between these two men, and I won't go into an exposition on those differences save to say this:

When David sinned before the Lord (with Bathsheba), and was confronted by God's prophet (Nathan), he repented before the Lord. Further, although David prayed on his face before God for mercy for his newborn son, God would not answer that prayer. God told David he was forgiven, but that the sword would never depart from his house. When David's son died, David got up, and worshipped his God - the God who gives, and who takes away. David praised God for His Holiness, and His Righteousness.

When Lee sinned, he covered it up. When he was caught, he destroyed the reputations of those who outted him. Lee did not repent, he did damage control, by going on the offensive. Lee did whatever it took to protect his reputation, his standing amongst "his churches" and maintain his religious empire. Witness Lee denies the Righteousness of God, and teaches instead that "the greatest sin before the Lord is not to enjoy Him." That is nothing more than a damnable lie, and you won't find it anywhere in the Bible.

If David behaved the way Lee did, (if he accused and 'quarantined' Nathan, if he went after Nathan's supporters by propagating and publishing lies to cover up his crime, if he refused to acknowledge his sin and guilt) do you REALLY think God would STILL have said "David is a man after My own heart"? Brother, there is NO WAY.

...I find it most telling indeed that the Bible says that God disciplines those whom He loves (Proverbs 3:12, Hebrews 12:6), and yet Lee seemingly "got away with it all". He lived a very long life, died with his "empire" intact, and was interred in a monumental cemetary before his weeping followers; upheld as the "perfect God-man" by the LSM loyal. That alone speaks volumes, does it not?

02-04-2013, 06:48 PM	#5
NeitherFirstnorLast Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Posts: 348	Re: The Building and a Bride in the Bible Good evening Brother Igzy, I understand, I think, what you're saying... and secularly speaking, what you are saying makes a lot of sense. If Lee weren't a Christian leader, but was instead a CEO of a large multi-natonal conglomerate who had, on the one hand: 1) Made some poor business decisions in order to benefit his own family (nepotism). 2) Swindled some investors out of their investments, in order to cover the losses of his own company. 3) Maligned his competition in the market place, in order to gain more market share. 4) Black-balled employees who dissented from his decisions. 5) Increased his autonomous authority and greatly decreased his own accountability to his shareholders; becoming a defacto tyrant. But who, on the other hand also: 6) Implemented radical new ideas that increased the wealth of the company. 7) Invested in R&D to develop new products to push his company to the forefront of it's market. 8) Gained market-share to greatly increase the profitability of his corporation. 9) Secured the loyalty of his employees to such an extent that he was able to reduce and even eliminate wages, increase work hours, and yet increase the workload of his employees. 10) Gained the hearts of his own employees to such an extent that when he died, no successor could be chosen; rather, only his previously handed down decisions and minutes from his meetings can be repeated and reiterated, for fear of losing the principles that made his company so strong. ...Such a CEO, were he uplifted to "sainthood" by some, and demonized by others, might indeed be someone we could cautiously learn from. Someone with whom we maybe could take the "balanced approach" you suggest. But Lee was no CEO. Lee was a man who claimed to speak for God as his Oracle of this Age - and that being the case, we must use BIBLICAL, not secular principles, to judge how we ought to weigh his work. And how are we to judge "Oracles"? Jeremiah 23:28-40 "The prophet who has a dream may relate his dream, but let him who has My word speak My word in truth. What does straw have in common with grain?” declares the Lord. “Is not My word like fire?” declares the Lord, “and like a hammer which shatters a rock? Therefore behold, I am against the prophets,” declares the Lord, “who steal My words from each other. Behold, I am against the prophets,” declares the Lord, “who use their tongues and declare, ‘The Lord declares.’ Behold, I am against those who have prophesied false dreams,” declares the Lord, “and related them and led My people astray by their falsehoods and reckless boasting; yet I did not send them or command them, nor do they furnish this people the slightest benefit,” declares the Lord. “Now when this people or the prophet or a priest asks you saying, ‘What is the oracle of the Lord?’ then you shall say to them, ‘What oracle?’ The Lord declares, ‘I will abandon you.’ Then as for the prophet or the priest or the people who say, ‘The oracle of the Lord,’ I will bring punishment upon that man and his household. Thus will each of you say to his neighbor and to his brother, ‘What has the Lord answered?’ or, ‘What has the Lord spoken?’ For you will no longer remember the oracle of the Lord, because every man’s own word will become the oracle, and you have perverted the words of the living God, the Lord of hosts, our God. Thus you will say to that prophet, ‘What has the Lord answered you?’ and, ‘What has the Lord spoken?’ For if you say, ‘The oracle of the Lord!’ surely thus says the Lord, ‘Because you said this word, “The oracle of the Lord!” I have also sent to you, saying, “You shall not say, ‘The oracle of the Lord!’”’ Therefore behold, I will surely forget you and cast you away from My presence, along with the city which I gave you and your fathers.I will put an everlasting reproach on you and an everlasting humiliation which will not be forgotten.” The Lord was very clear, in the latter days False Prophets would come. In fact, every book of the New Testament (except one) speaks of False Prophets, and how we are to deal with them (as well as how the Lord deals with them). You have likened, perhaps unintentionally, Lee to a "Baby" in your argument - either a "baby being thrown out with bathwater", or a "filthy baby". But babies are innocent. If they are dirty, it is because they haven't been properly cared for or watched. Lee was not innocent. Lee was not under the care of any others; he claimed authority for himself, and that has very serious repercussions before our Lord. James 3:1 "Not many of you should presume to be teachers, my brothers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly." Lee didn't claim to be a "Teacher" of the Word of God, but "THE" Teacher of the Word - and without his footnotes (private interpretations), he taught that one could not properly grow in faith or understanding. How seriously (strictly) will he be judged for that? Further, what you acknowledge as being "genuinely Lee's" were parts of his teachings (interpretations) of the Word. But Jesus Christ our Lord never taught that full understanding of the Written Word was required for spiritual growth or salvation. On the contrary, Christ said that study of the Scriptures (apart from acceptance of Christ as He is - our LORD) was worthless: John 5:39-44 "You diligently study the Scriptures because you think* that by them you possess eternal life.* These are the Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life. "I do not accept praise from men, but I know you. I know that you do not have the love of God in your hearts. I have come in my Father's name, and you do not accept me; but if someone else comes in his own name, you will accept him. How can you believe if you accept praise from one another, yet make no effort to obtain the praise that comes from the only* God?" Faith saves, not knowledge; and the kind of faith Christ told us he sought was "child-like" faith and repentance. Matthew 18:3 "Then he said, "I tell you the truth, unless you turn from your sins and become like little children, you will never get into the Kingdom of Heaven." So what is child-like faith, to the Israelite and a Father? Children in the Old Testament are commanded to "Honor their Father (and their mother)"; they know their place, they trust completely in their parents to care for them and meet their needs. They are content in all things with their parents provision, regardless of it's material worth. They love their parents with their whole heart, mind, soul and strength. If Christ wanted us to know and understand His every Word (rather than simply trust and obey), then why did He say to His disciples: John 16:12 "“I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now." And if Christ wanted us to sift through the teachings of false teachers, to gleen what might have been "good' (right) about what they taught, then why did He say to us in His Word: Titus 1:10-11 "For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers.... Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake." Igzy, Christ didn't treat false teachers and false teachings with kid gloves. Over and over again the Word of God stresses that false teachers are damned* by God, and that we must beware of them. Steve, you have likened Witness Lee to David. There are many, many differences between these two men, and I won't go into an exposition on those differences save to say this: When David sinned before the Lord (with Bathsheba), and was confronted by God's prophet (Nathan), he repented before the Lord. Further, although David prayed on his face before God for mercy for his newborn son, God would not answer that prayer. God told David he was forgiven, but that the sword would never depart from his house. When David's son died, David got up, and worshipped his God - the God who gives, and who takes away. David praised God for His Holiness, and His Righteousness. When Lee sinned, he covered it up. When he was caught, he destroyed the reputations of those who outted him. Lee did not repent, he did damage control, by going on the offensive. Lee did whatever it took to protect his reputation, his standing amongst "his churches" and maintain his religious empire. Witness Lee denies the Righteousness of God, and teaches instead that "the greatest sin before the Lord is not to enjoy Him." That is nothing more than a damnable lie, and you won't find it anywhere in the Bible. If David behaved the way Lee did, (if he accused and 'quarantined' Nathan, if he went after Nathan's supporters by propagating and publishing lies to cover up his crime, if he refused to acknowledge his sin and guilt) do you REALLY think God would STILL have said "David is a man after My own heart"? Brother, there is NO WAY. ...I find it most telling indeed that the Bible says that God disciplines those whom He loves (Proverbs 3:12, Hebrews 12:6), and yet Lee seemingly "got away with it all". He lived a very long life, died with his "empire" intact, and was interred in a monumental cemetary before his weeping followers; upheld as the "perfect God-man" by the LSM loyal. That alone speaks volumes, does it not?