[Thankful Jane]

Mine in blue.

Isa 1:18, Come now and let us reason together

My oh my,

So many false positives!!! If the conclusion is already settled on then the facts and evidence really do not matter. No need to collect any evidence that does not line up with the pre-ordained conclusion.

I have with some degree of consternation and disappointment observed how any positive report or experience is dismissed and only the experience of abuse or failure is valid.

I thought the name of the forum was LocalChurchDiscussions.com. I did not realize it was Matt 3:10-11, "And the axe is already laid at the root of the trees; every tree therefore that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.

Here is what you don’t seem to understand. This thread, created by djohnson, is under the Spiritual Abuse subforum. Djohnson’s thread is a valid one for this subforum. You came here and out of the blue accused djohnson of wanting us all to disappear and of wanting to curse us all. You also came here trying to point out the LC positives and correct us for discussing spiritual abuse only. A few others joined in with you. When we reacted to this you accused us of denigrating those who were speaking positively. Most of what has gone on the past day or two is in reaction to what you did. Some of us want to talk about the abuse in the LCs for a number of reasons, the most important of which is the abused. That is why we came to this thread.

By the way does it cut both ways? I have been accused of trying to shut people down. But then, is anyone trying to shut down any positive evidence or positive experience while in the local church at …

No, I don't think it cuts both ways on this thread. We reacted to talk about positive things because it is inappropriate on this thread. For example, no matter how good a family is or how many positive things there are about it, when child molestation is discovered, it is not appropriate for family members to want to somehow balance that bad by pointing out the good things about the family. Every member of the family should give their full attention to such a problem upon its discovery, first to help the abused member and second to see that the abuser gets his due and gets help. Family members who start trying to talk to authorities and social workers about all the good things in the family are exhibiting signs of denial and also are showing that they care more for family image than the one who was abused.

The normal response to abuse of those we love being exposed is for all to be horrified and upset by this (even if there is only one case!) and to give it full attention. When the molested child gets help and the abuser gets punished, stopped, and hopefully helped, then things can proceed. Until that happens, the family train is stopped dead on the tracks. Many times there are other victims that need to be surfaced … If this matter surfaces many years later, the same process needs to take place, even if people including the abused have “moved on.” Why? The abuser is still on the loose and there are certainly more victims that may not have been able to “move on.”

I believe God feels this strongly about the damage done to His family. Djohnson referred to the dirty sins that were committed by those who left. It’s ugly, I agree, but, sadly, there are cases like this. I know things that have shocked me to the core which were done by ex-members who left the Lord. Also, there are many destroyed marriages and psychologically wounded children who were left unable to trust God. Elders were directly involved in very dark ways insome of these happenings. I know of three cases off the top of my head that would make an afternoon soap opera sound like a Sunday School story. Children in jail, parents alienated from their children for years, women left out on the street barely able to survive, literally,and more. I’d tell some of these stories, but the further harm that could come due to thetangle of divided family members (some in and some out) makes that impossible.

After the meeting was reported it became the proof case for other charges to be made and to shut up any positive reports. The details were very vivid and the details were used to give the report validity.

The report has validity not because of how it is written but because it is a true event.

The number of elders present was important to show the extreme and ridiculous practice of church abuse of children. The extra local aspect was used to demonstrate how pervasive the manner of abuse was.

You are attributing motives to the writing of the account which you cannot know. They are false. The story may actually do these things, but to say that was the motive in writing it is a false accusation.

Thus the holes in the details are important. I noticed that my attempt to give legitimacy to the report while giving a plausible explanation of how the confrontation could have occurred got absolutely no traction but rather a wild scenario was put forth of a training exercise on how to abuse defenseless saints.

If you want to get to the bottom of what is true, it seems the most logical thing to do is to get the facts, the names, etc., and the appropriate place to do this would be the PM system. Such details would help your memory and save you from speculation. The names and other details were not included in the book for good reason. You never PMed me. Maybe you PMed BlessD? I thought your speculative explanation was feasible, but not definitive. You weren’t there. BlessD was. It is only reasonable that her account gets the most traction, until other facts are established.

I have been asked what I am protecting. Remember the post by Brent Barber on the other forum. It was recently referred to on this forum. I then read it. I cannot express how furious I was. Do you know the rest of the story?

There are many stories related to Brent that I know, so I can’t answer your question because I don’t know what story you are talking about.

Before I told it, I PMed Mike H. for his fellowship. He felt that exposing the man would not be helpful or edifying and ask that I keep it to myself. He used the story of the drunken Noah as an example that may apply. I have taken his fellowship and believe that he is correct. If you want the rest of the story, you must persuade Mike H. If there is a “rest of the story” regarding the young sister, I do not want to know it or expose it. Maybe there is not. I took her word that she wanted to move on and had rather talk about the Lord. I am all for it.

There is not a “rest of the story” that would change the truth of what was presented. There is a little more information, but it has the potential to make the already black story blacker.

I agree that ultimately the details are not an issue. What is an issue is the move to shut me down and any others who are not in the total axe treatment of the local churches and the brothers and sisters who have been there or are still there.

Hope, you are the one who moved to shut down djohnson. I explained previously why I found your presentation of positive things to be inappropriate on this thread.

Now I must ask. What are you trying to protect?

If by this you are questioning my motive in what I have posted on this thread, then here is my answer: My motive in discussing the abusive behaviors in the LC is to help the abused. Many abused find these forums and get help. I spent 6 hours recently listening to two young women talk about their painful family experience growing up in the LCs. This was the first time they had ever talked freely about this to anyone. They were nervous and apologetic seemingly waiting for the ax to fall as they spoke. Never in a million years would I have tried to speak to them about “positive” experiences or balance their bad experience with stories of good ones. They were hurting. They needed help. The starting place for abused is being able to talk about the abuse and learning they were not alone. They have been helped by the information on these forums.

TJ, Your post is so full of bitter accusation against me. I have to ask myself why. Can you see that you are doing the very thing you accuse the LCS of doing?

Please quote my bitter accusations against you so I can see what you are talking about. No I don’t see how what I have done is the same. You’ll need to explain how.

Here are a few of the other statements from posters. Please note the bitter tone and resentment this story has stirred and how it is used as the universal example. How can any positive testimony of the Lord’s work be given if it is anyway associated with the local churches of any time or place?

Knowing that these sorts of bizzare extra-local meetings were actually transpiring gives a whole lot of ground for believing a whole lot of things.
Sure, my account is putely speculative. But knowing how the rest of these details usually fill in, it's not a giant leap at all. Someone suggested it was voyeristic earlier and I declined to think so at first but truly, there was no reason for all these people to be present, however many there were or why.
Are these the same guys who think kissing a boy is an extra local matter? I said in the another forum that the leadership of the LCS are full of Baloney. Hey maybe that's a better description than addiction!
I was thankful to find your story to quote on this forum in response to an elder and others who seemed to think that things were not as bad as they were. Actual experiences of others are the only way I know to bring these matters forward to get the attention that they deserve.

I do not find a bitter tone or resentment. These are comments made about the actual event that actually happened. People are free to comment. It is a logical conclusion that if something like this could happen, it is not a stretch to believe there were other things. The story happened, Hope. It speaks for itself. You cannot control what people hear from a true story. If you can prove it false with facts, then please do.

I have no problem with the idea of filling in the details and really understanding how this all came to pass. I personally do not believe you were there, because you said you weren’t. That is good enough for me. If I think about the fact that you were a leading elder in Dallas, it is hard to understand how this could have happened in your backyard without your knowledge, but I still believe your statement that you had no knowledge of it. I believe it is most likely you were not involved because you would have objected.

With BlessD, in one breath you told her you didn’t question her story and in the next you questioned her story. If I remember correctly you raised questions about the veracity of her story more than once. There is a difference in my mind between questioning the truth of what someone says and filling in the missing pieces that make it all make sense. This is what I found offensive. I felt very badly for BlessD. BlessD’s hurt didn’t end in Dallas. The abuse by leadership continued in OKC

Here is part of the last post from Thankful Jane. Why such hateful words?

Honestly I felt ashamed, BlessD, when I saw that your account was called into question publicly by an ex LC leader and that there was even an attempt to undermine your story by saying first there was no such table in Dallas and suggesting maybe it was in Houston, then next that the table and room were not big enough. Obviously the most glaring thing of importance was the very abuse that you went through--abuse which was nothing less than a psychological and spiritual gang rape, and this was done in front of your parent's who sat there silently watching. Words fail me.
but the fact is that any other response to your story is not normal. I am sorry you had to have insult added to injury by having your story questioned. It made me think of someone who finally is able to come forward and report a shameful crime who finds themselves being questioned like they were the criminal.
In this case it seems that the prime directive quickly became minimizing your story or finding a way to make it go away. BlessD, I am sorry for this treatment. You didn’t deserve it.
You are right. It really doesn’t matter if it was 16, 12, 8 elders … What matters is that it happened and that everyone present assented to it happening.
So, to close the door on some of the questions, I spoke with someone today who confirmed to me that at the time this happened to you there definitely was a table in the dining room of the Big House that would easily handle 16 people, possibly more.

I can see how this offended you, however, I wasn’t talking to you directly and it was not meant to be hateful to you. It was meant to be kind to BlessD. I made a choice between taking care of how you might feel and how she might feel. I chose to take care of her. I would do it again. I do not hate you at all. I just don’t like how you have been behaving on this thread.

Tj, I use to live in the big house. No way 16 men plus the parents and the sister are crowding into that room with a full dining room table. My question about a table was since the first impression was that the meeting occurred in the meeting hall. I asked about details originally because I could not imagine such a thing. When I did, that became a cause on the forum and the events as reported must therefore stand. When I saw how the details were giving standing to attack any positive reports, I began to think about what had been said and how it could not have come down as reported which helped me understand why I was so uninformed.

The point of questioning the event is not did it happen. I never said it did not happen. I am sad for the pain suffered and do not agree that whatever the offense was should have been handled as it was. I have made that perfectly clear over and over.

Okay, I will take your word on this. It didn’t come through perfectly clear to me that you were not questioning the truth of the report. Trusting that if I were to re-read your posts I would find your claim to be true, please accept my apology for representing in what I wrote, that you were questioning the truth of what happened.

You know TJ that it is not the events suffered by the sister that have been called into question but your account of it. You visceral reaction makes me wonder what really is important and what is it you are fighting for. Frankly you owe me an apology for your abusive language and belittling remarks.

My account of it was actually written by her first in first person. We edited it to put it in the third person with a pseudonym and to improve grammar. She stated in her first post that she reviewed the final copy after editing and approved it as accurate.

Please quote my abusive language and belittling remarks so I can apologize specifically.

You have strongly stated your desire to practice Matt. 18. Now is your chance. Yes, you have offended a brother who has never done you any harm.

There is no question that you have never harmed me in any way. I also have no intention to harm you.

I am now aware you are offended and I am sorry that I offended you. I am willing to go the distance with you to clear up the offense. If you need me to be more specific, then I will need more specific explanation of what you want me to apologize for.

Thankful Jane