[Hope]

My comments mistakenly were put in the quote box!!!

Originally Posted by Thankful Jane

I don’t see anything on this forum in djohnson’s posts that says he is “no friend.”

Djohnson is free to make statements here, spectacular or otherwise. We are free to support or refute them based on their content.

Sweeping statements are also allowed and can be discussed. For clarity’s sake, would you mind giving us one of these “sweeping” statements. You say that five people were dismissed out of hand. Where was that? I saw some arguments offered. I didn’t’ see anyone’s person being dismissed out of hand.

Really??? Go back and read the responses to those five. They were either ignored or completely shouted down. Reminded me a little of the LC collective groan. I did not see much in the posts where someone said "Thank you for that side of the experience." There was some. But a healthy back and forth is difficult when you give your experience and are trumped with a story of woe and grief, (the real stuff.)
Sweeping statements?? Here are a few that I noticed. I really hate to do this because I am going to get into trouble. But I did not speak up in the old LCS many times because I wanted everyone to like me.
among those who grew up in the LCS many face social issues. Some that I am familiar with are: alcoholism, homosexuality, sexual promiscuity, divorce, paying for sex i.e. engaging in services of prostitutes, infidelity, porn addiction.
A subculture that was restricting them thus became a culprit in their lustful pursuits.
our children were raised in an environment that was basically anti-family
The addictive behavior is obvious in the LCS and it is encouraged.
I do believe that there was enough abuse in families not to take it lightly or try to move past it through the use of a few examples that appear to mitigate the overall situation.
P.S. Based on what I have heard from others it is possible that the Texas Region (inclusive of Dallas) was more extreme than other regions of the US.
In short they know that Lee was their shadow mommy and daddy.
Perhaps it should be said more plainly: their parents were addicted to Mr. Lee and thus they are children of parents with a chronic addiction
In answer to Dennis' question: their are more social problems among those children who grow up with addicts as parents than otherwise.
Husbands were looked down on if they did anything to help their wives
If you want to understand why so many kids grew up with problems, ask the sisters. They had to deny their most basic instincts concerning the family.
As other posters have written, children watched their parents burn pictures of them. Wow.
It was a sad, sad place and a lot of people, not only children, were not protected and treasured the way we all deserve. The way God commands. Love one another as I have loved you.
It was alot bad
Many can tell you that their children were eventually lost because of the way they were “taken care of” in the Local Church
The picture of the LC life was not what some here seem to want to paint

Perhaps these conclusions are all correct. But I would prefer a reasoned presentation of incorrect teachings, (some have quoted WL to make this point.) and then a calm accounting of the bad practices with a conclusion.

By the way if WL had been kind and his children had been model Christians and all the elders had been godly and the families beautiful, I still would have left. I was loyal to an ideal, a goal to which the Lord had called me. In short, I wanted to know Christ personally and directly as my life and Lord. I wanted to experience a church life that was a testimony of the headship of Christ and the reality of the oneness of the functioning members. By 1988 it was painfully clear that "the Lord's Recovery" with its Apostle of the Age, Deputy Authority, etc was not what the Lord desired or what I wanted.

Addiction? No. I never had any withdrawals. I was relieved that I did not have to attend any more 10 day trainings or critical conferences or urgent elder-co-workers meetings or late night fellowships with the legend or any of his closest co-workers and especially those warmed over death videos. I put all the LSM literature in the attic or a closet and plunged into the "pure" word of God. Oh it is so sweet. The only time I have considered reading something of the old stuff is when Thankful Jane or Nell or Mike H. challenge me on something and I think, "oh boy, I guess I am going to have to check that out." In fact in my writing of the history, I will not be able to continue to avoid it. On the other hand, I did struggle for a time. That was not due to any withdrawals but due to a shattered ideal and great grief over my failures as a shepherd.


You are loading up the language here, Hope. Denigrated? (def: to attack somebody’s character or reputation; to disparage or criticize somebody or something, or make something seem unimportant). Please give an example of such denigration. I missed it, that is, until your post to djohnson..

I got the word "denigrate" from one of the posters who was exhorting Arizona for posting his experience which showed another side to the thread's focus. I also used "peer pressure" because one of the posters had used it to describe a key element of the control exercised in the LC. (By the way I do agree that peer pressure was in insidious element there.) Sometimes things cut both ways.
I watched djohnson’s posts greatly improve over a period of time on the other forum. What has he done on this forum?

Good ole djohnson's post have improved. I have tried to engage him in a thoughtful manner and give him his due. What he had done here is draw us into a debate concerning who had the most reliable and legitimate lc experience of how bad it was.

Looking at his words, I would say he is stating the obvious. I agree with him that there is such a thing as a Lee addiction. Many are in denial about this.

See Matt's comments.

What!? Hope, how can you know that djohnson wants this? Has he told you this? We can judge each other’s actions and words for what they actually are, but saying we know others motives is crossing a line.
Posters do this all the time. You included TJ. How often I have seen WL's motives addressed because of his actions and words.


Disappear? Self destruct? .... Whoa, Hope, you’re getting a little scary here. Okay, by now you’ve had a good night’s sleep, and I’m sure when you re-read this, you’ll see how strange this sounds ....

I do need a good night’s sleep. Ever since my illness I am not as strong as I use to be. But I have more on my plate than ever. Sleep, ah sweet sleep. Thank you for your concerns. What I said may sound strange but just file what I said for later reference. I always hope that my warnings will not come to pass. But had I warned back in 1974 concerning what I saw at that fateful Urgent Elders/Co-Workers meeting, you may have called me strange.

I totally agree that the LC was a collecting place of a lot of previously damaged people. They, however, didn’t just start applying things in an extreme way all by themselves. They were in love with Jesus and were ready to be led. I would say “many” not “some” of the leaders did not practice “proper” leadership. Proper leaders would not silently follow improper “main” leaders into error. They would be holding the Head and would speak up accordingly. There are few to none who did. I witnessed many “silver bullets” shot at people in meetings. I don’t remember even one leader ever speaking up to correct this. Instead, I remember them nodding their heads in agreement.

You got me there. Instead of "many" how about 95% of the leaders where failures is caring for the saints. You said it right. In addition, I saw plenty of silver bullets being fired and probably fired a few myself. James Barber promoted this and boasted that this was often how he got his way in the church where he was. Once Bill Freeman told me that this was a terrible practice and he would never do it. Once it was said, it could not have been clearer. I emptied by firing chamber and I trust I never reloaded.

The last thing dysfunctional people trying to get their lives on course with God need is dysfunctional leaders giving them unhealthy teaching.

I believe you truly desire this and commend you for it and also for the willingness you have exhibited on this forum to listen to others.

In line with your stated desire, please allow me then to say that this post of yours is reminiscent of a local church elder doing damage control; however, in your case I'm not sure what you're trying to protect. Don't you see that what you are doing comes across as denigrating djohnson?

It seems to me that you are speaking down to us as one who is “in the know” and has a “clearer picture” of things than everyone else. You warned us earlier about “blaming” and not being drawn into Satan’s “accusing, accusing, accusing.”

Hope, as long as we aren’t violating basic courtesy or personally attacking someone and as long as we’re not going afield from Lee/Nee matters, we are free to say whatever we think on this forum--even if it sounds like blaming or accusing.

This kind of warning shuts people down by triggering their fears of offending God in some way. It stops those with a sensitive conscience from speaking the truth that they need to speak. This forum is a place where hurt people can learn to dialogue honestly without fear and without having to worry about figuring out if they sound like they are “blaming” or “accusing.”

I’m still feel like I'm sitting in an LC meeting being warned about who and what I should listen to. I am being told that I should not receive something from a person who has been identified as someone whose motive is bad and who is hurting us.

Hope, forgive my bluntness. I love you as my brother in Christ and want only His very best for you. I know you mean only the best. I’m sure our leaders in the past meant the best; nevertheless, they didn’t do the best.

Most of us do not want to be given pronouncements about what we should think, or say, or believe or who we should listen to. We, not only can, but must, make such judgments for ourselves.

I am not upset with you. I am full of sympathy for what you have been through. I understand that you were not as guilty as other leaders and appreciate that. However, I feel out I should point out what I see as a symptom of what I consider to be the LC leadership disease.

You can take or leave what I’ve written. That’s up to you. I do hope you will give it some consideration. I may be one of the only ones to push back like this and will probably get some flack for it, but that's okay.

I sat silently in the LC and watched while leaders, using the base of respect they had built up with others, made pronouncements to and about others that were not theirs to make. I am not going to just sit by quietly on this forum when I see more of the same.


Ever your sister and faithful witness in Christ Jesus,

Thankful Jane

Is not life ironic!!! I have felt so bad because in the lc days I kept my mouth shut lest I be negative and shut people down. Let us laugh a little bit together. I feel like I am getting a talk from Benson about my questioning regarding the ministry.

I believe the saints on the forum can handle anything I throw out there and do not need protection. But I understand your concerns. We do not want to repeat the past. But when I see a problem coming down the road and aiming for people I care for I must speak up. For me everything is first about the people. The LSM, the BB, the apostle of the age do not mean a hill of beans to me but only how they have hurt the Lord's dear people. We are absolutely one on this even though we may express it differently.

By the way 18 months or so ago when I began to post on the other forum, I wondered how you might greet me should we ever meet again. I was afraid you might kick me in the shins for having been one of the Texas elders. I think by now I have moved up to a hand shake but I know I am still a long way off from a hug.

In Christ Jesus there is hope for us all,

Hope, Don Rutledge