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Old 11-12-2012, 08:47 AM   #164
ZNPaaneah
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Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 7,105
Default Re: heaven

Quote:
Originally Posted by OBW View Post
THe answer to your opening question is "yes."

What you have demonstrated is that there are several references that somewhat fit together, and somewhat confuse one another. At least as long as the thought is that these are all very literal, precise-meaning phrases intending to provide a "modern," systematic, and cohesive theology. And if that is the goal, then there is room for complaint about inconsistencies. But I believe that you will see that each of these are specific references that are not intended so much to tell us about what happens after death as to reflect upon the results of the actions and decisions of this life.

We had some disagreement some months back about the cohesiveness of a series of parables that Jesus spoke. There was the field with the weeds sown by the enemy, followed by several others — some relating to growing and harvesting, some used leaven, and at least one referred to fishing. I don't remember if you had a particular thought on this, but my impression from these was that even where the same thing came up a second time, it was not necessarily for the purpose of creating a larger theology surrounding that thing, but of using some aspect of it to make a point.

Another is where Jesus speaks at least three parables in a row concerning sheep, shepherds, sheep pens, the gate, etc. In each of those, he made a specific point. Some think that the use of the common collective in the metaphorical sense was to build a complete metaphor concerning Christ. But if that is true, there is a problem. In one, Christ is the shepherd. But in another it is clear that men are shepherds. So it is not as simple as some larger whole.

And for those who just got lost in all of that, the thing that I see in these various tidbits about what happens after death are these:
  1. They are not placed together.
  2. The most important part of them (in most cases) is not what they say about what happens after death.
Since they have purpose other than the "after-death," and they are not even in the general proximity of each other, I do not find a compelling reason to begin to build a cohesive theology concerning what scripture does not say based on the nearly nothing that it does say.
Although none of this is relevant to the current discussion it does remind me of something that is. On another forum there was a raging debate over "once saved always saved". So I asked them to define "saved" and provided about 9 or 10 different usages of this term in the New Testament.

Now this debate is central to this discussion and I would argue there is no way to reconcile the verses on "salvation" unless you determine that the word "saved" does not always refer to the same salvation. If you agree with that, which is basically your premise as I understand it in this post (just because a word is common to two different verses doesn't mean they are referring to the same truth), then you are forced to define what happens to a person after they die.

After all the word "overcome" is clearly making a fine delineation between two "saved" believers.
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