Quote:
Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah
... this was important to Martin Luther, Jesus and Paul. But not important to OBW.
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Since I initiated this thread, let me try to bring it back on track in 500 words or less.
OBW rightly objects to the discussion degenerating into empty speculation on realms we know nothing experientially about.
ZNP says the ancients were "examining these things, to see if they were so", and so should we.
First, I thought
Anderson's critique of the Nee/Lee "overcomer" school unfair. Nee & Lee don't overturn Ephesians 2's
"...it is by grace that you have been saved, it is of faith, not of works. It is the gift of God". They try to point out the scriptural warnings of sloth and indolence.
"Behold, I am coming, and My reward is with me according to your works." In the Epistle to Hebrews, in the epistles to the the Asian ekklesia in Revelations, and elsewhere in the NT (e.g. Galatians, Jude, and 2 Peter) we see warnings to the believers. Paul's word that "You may suffer loss; you will be saved, but through fire" also seems worthy of discussion.
But my critique was that the Nee/Lee discussion on this topic was about as satisfying as one of Rudyard Kipling's "Just So" stories. You get no references, no possible explanations. Just that Witness Lee says it is so.
So I found it to be crude, simplistic, and unsatisfactory. I said at the beginning of the thread that I don't claim to be able to thoroughly examine the issue, and also that this forum may not the venue to do so. I merely wanted to show in some of Jesus' parables a few possible nuances that are ignored in the Nee/Lee school. But I don't imagine that a few verses constitute proofs showing definitively the hidden realms. That, in fact, is my objection of Lee: that he's trying to do this.
Jesus prayed to the Father: "Your will be done on earth, as it is done in Heaven". I think it is important for us to consider how things are done in heaven. That means, for example, not lording it over one another. Not being covetous for temporal gain, and being snared by deceitful things of the world. We have outward laws, but Jesus said that if you break the laws in your heart, you have broken them in the heavenly realms. Look at His teachings on adultery, for example. "If you look at a woman because of lust in your heart, you have committed adultery."
These are warnings, spoken to believers, not to unbelievers. He is speaking to His disciples. It is hard to make it into the kingdom of heaven, and we must struggle to get in. "Masticating the processed and consummated Triune God" may loom large in Witness Lee's economy, but perhaps being an overcomer depends more on endurance in righteousness, obedience, repentance, and mercy (for example).
If we oversimplify the heavenly realms, we can end up, like the LSMites, trying to "make it", i.e. to be overcomers. Because their goal is ill-formed they either get frustrated and give up, or trust that their relationship with a certain publishing house in Anaheim, California is a bellwether of their spiritual condition. Both routes, I believe, go into the ditch. Our Father is nuanced, detailed, and fine. Every hair is counted. Every thought is measured. Just go forward, carefully.