[Peter Debelak]

ZNP:

I appreciate you're thoughtful response. Here's my best attempt at responding at least to a couple of your examples.

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

When you say the “assembly” is that equal to the NT term that we translate “Church”? Also, are you equating the assembly with the venue? Because I don’t see how this understanding could align with a number of verses. It seems to my understanding that the Church cannot be defined as wherever two or three meet together.

As "ekklesia" was used in the NT - it had multiple references, sometimes a specific group, sometimes just meaning an assemblage of people, sometimes a mob, and sometimes the universal Body of Christ.

More often than not, this term just gets conflated to refer to distinct and separated groups, each with their own agengy. I am arguing that simple "gatherings" and the formal grouping of Christians are equally "the church" - not unlike the way in which the nondenominational and Baptist churches are equally "the assembly."

Regarding "venue" - I didn't mean specific location, I mean the occasion of gathering together.

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

For example:

1. Paul is an apostle of Jesus Christ given unto the Church (2Cor 1:1). How could a venue be given the Apostle Paul?

Paul is given unto the church. That means he is given to serve the gathering of believers for their mutual edification. Not sure how this is problematic to my view.

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

2. In Revelation 2 and 3 each Church has an Angel. It seems a little over the top to think that a couple of saints meeting at a coffee shop “have an angel” for that venue.

I generally read Revelation 2-3 as setting forth principles rather than being literal (most read it that way - its not like nowadays there are only seven churches and seven associated angels).

I didn't argue that two guys who meet at a coffee shop suddenly become an "entity" called "church".

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

3. Phebe is a servant of the church. (Rom 16:1) Again, hard to imagine many of these gatherings you are describing having a “servant”.

If the "gathering of believers" is for the mutual edification of Christians - someone could be a servant of making that happen, no matter the outward form it takes.

The believer who constantly opens their home to have young couples, struggling believers, families over for mutual edification - I would say that believer is a "servant" of the "ekklesia." You don't have to volunteer for one of the "teams" in the "service office" in order to be considered a servant of the church.

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

4. Herod stretched forth his hand to vex certain of the church (Acts 12:1). Again, I just don’t see a king getting all bent out of shape at 2 or 3 meeting at a coffee house.

Here, it seems "ekklesia" refers to all believers - the universal church.

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

5. At the time of Saul’s conversion there was a “great persecution against the church”. How could you persecute all these varied venues?

Again, referring to the universal church. The persecuters didn't care about where these believers met - they cared that they were believers.


I'm sure I'll need to explain further. I just want to make sure we're not talking past one another (I have a bad habit of doing so).

Peter