Quote:
Originally Posted by MacDuff
UntoHim
I have only this to say about Martin Luther. Martin Luther was perhaps one of the greatest heretics of the past two millennia. When considered in the context of Christian history. When considered in the context of the ekklesia as portrayed in the New Testament, he totally missed the point. He was too immersed in the thinking of his day.
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MacDuff
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I like what you say here. Martin Luther rebelled against the authority of the Catholic Church. If you agree with his right to do that then you must agree that Heb 13:7 did not apply to the Catholic church. If they had "rule" over Martin Luther then He is guilty of rebellion and condemned by the New Testament. On the other hand, if you agree that the Catholic Church did not have rule over him, then why should the Protestant church? After all, their foundation is based on the fact that the Church leaders do not have rule over a person following the Lord and that Heb 13:7 is not referring to "church leaders". Likewise Witness Lee rebelled against the authority of the Denominations, calling them daughters of the whore. Witness Lee utterly repudiated any authority that either the Catholic Church or the Protestant churches might claim, and yet he then enforced a level of submission to his authority which was as severe as any that we have seen from either the Catholic or Protestant churches (of course this view is tempered by the times, Salem witch trials and some of the torture the Catholic church did a few hundred years ago would seem more extreme, though quite similar in nature to WL).
Surely we can agree that we are not obligated to submit to the rule of Witness Lee or his cronies. So then, in light of history it would seem the only ones who can genuinely argue that Heb 13:7 refers to church leaders would be Catholics.
Since I am not a Catholic I have to conclude that "submit to those who have rule over you" would refer to the Apostle's teaching in the New Testament, and to the Spirit, but not to Church leaders. If you have a mentor or better yet a "shepherd", someone who has helped you as a new believer I think you would choose to submit to them because they are watching out for your soul, but there is no reason in my mind to equate "church leader" with the person who truly shepherded you as a new believer.