[Cal]

Originally Posted by MacDuff

Do you think being led by the Holy Spirit and following the teaching of Jesus Christ through the Holy Spirit is just a theory? According to the New Testament, practicality for those who are in Christ has everything to do with the supernatural, not the natural. To think that the Spirit isn’t up to dealing with any problem that might come up in a gathering of those who are in Christ is a practical denial of the existence of supernatural reality.

I think the Spirit is totally capable. The problem comes is when even reasonable, well-meaning people disagree on what the Spirit is doing and how he is leading.

That's really the whole issue, and why in some circumstances human organization is needed. Someone has to decide for the group. Even if the Spirit is totally leading, you are still going to have disagreement, because people are imperfect. Any decision, Spirit-led or not, is going to come down to one of four kinds of processes:

1. Consensus/Everyone agrees. (The spiritual ideal the LC tried to manufacture.)
2. Majority rule.
3. Decision by leader(s).
4. Every man for himself.

There are really no other options. My point is that even with the Spirit, you are going to have to fall back on one of those processes. When I ask you to be practical, I'm asking you to recognize this fact and make provision for it.

Now, in the Church at large, in a sense #4 is the way things are done. People ultimately decide for themselves about what they are going to do, where they are going to meet, how they are going to serve, and so forth. That's not a bad thing.

But in more organized groups, there has to be a little more cohesiveness. I don't see that the Bible precludes this. This why, I think, the Bible mentions obeying leaders.

Men choosing men to be rulers in that context, is an abuse of a system set in place by God himself.

So Paul appointing elders was an abuse? One man's appointing might be another's recognizing God's appointing.

What's the difference between appointing a leader and expecting everyone to recognize God's appointing?

As far as Christianity is concerned, it being what it is, a creation of human nature, there is a definite necessity for human rulers that must be obeyed by subjects in the gatherings of the various Christian denominations. So in that sense we agree.

Here's the problem. You talk about "Christianity" as if everyone agrees what it is. But where, exactly, does the ekklesia leave off and Christianity begin? You seem to think you know, but some might not agree with your assessment.

Where and how the Spirit is working is mysterious. I got into a habit in the LC of dismissing every Christian effort that I thought was not "genuine ekklesia." But I've come to realize I do not have the wisdom and discernment to decide that for everyone else. Nor do I think God wants me to have it.

I remember some Christians once talking about their "puppet ministry" to children. They toured with a puppet show to teach Christian principles to children. I scoffed inside at their ignorance. "Puppet ministry," I laughed. "God would never truly associate himself with such a thing."

But how did I know? The Spirit may have been using that mightily to touch little kids.

I understand the need for certain discernment. I just think we need to be really careful about what we categorically dismiss. We need to be careful we are just not making the good the enemy of the best (the best in our own minds.)