[MacDuff]

Igzy

Post #49

I don't mean to be critical, but I have a real hard time seeing what your overall point is. You state a lot of theory, but practically how to do see a church operating?

Are you saying that leaders of a church have no authority in the church? If so, how are problems handled? Who takes the lead and who has the authority to execute action, ultimately? This is a very practical question. The problem I have with what you say is it's just you and your theory. I don't see any practical realization of what you are talking about. Just you saying that you are right and everyone else is wrong.

What's your practical answer? How are churches to operate practically? Please try to keep your answer under 200 words if you don't mind. Thanks.

Please try to keep your answer under 200 words if you don't mind. Thanks.

This is not only insulting to me, it gives the impression that this forum concerns the trivial.

The KISS principle (Keep It Simple Stupid) is for people who have nothing important to say. It’s for people just talking and not really saying anything. What I say may be unimportant to others. That doesn’t mean it’s also unimportant to me. If I thought what I said was unimportant, I wouldn’t bother to say it.

I use as many words as I deem necessary to get what I’m saying across. I see no reason to count the number of words I’ve used. Those who are only here for entertainment, and prefer not to read long posts with meaningful content, don’t have to read my posts. In fact, I would rather they didn’t. Anything I might say wouldn’t have any meaning to them.

I don't mean to be critical, but I have a real hard time seeing what your overall point is.

Just a minute. Let me put away this red flag. It just popped up when I read “I don’t mean to be critical”.

I can talk to non-Christians about any subject. Whether or not they agree with me, they can always understand what I’m saying. But with Christians, I do have a problem with them understanding me. I’m not sure why. I just know the problem isn’t with me. Or the non-Christians wouldn’t be able to understand me either. Out here in real life, I’ve learned to just walk away from Christians who still can’t understand me after two tries.

The problem I have with what you say is it's just you and your theory. I don't see any practical realization of what you are talking about. Just you saying that you are right and everyone else is wrong.

When I state something that I believe to be true, and everyone else disagrees, you bet your sweet bippy that I think I’m right and they are wrong. Do you think I’m going to bother saying something I think is wrong just to be agreeable? You can think that what you think is just an opinion, if that’s your wish. Opinions don’t amount to much.

My psychiatrist told me I was crazy and I said I want a second opinion. He said okay, you're ugly too.
Rodney Dangerfield

If you’re expecting me to practice some sort of sham humility, then I’m sorry, but that’s not me.

You state a lot of theory, but practically how to do see a church operating?

Do you think being led by the Holy Spirit and following the teaching of Jesus Christ through the Holy Spirit is just a theory? According to the New Testament, practicality for those who are in Christ has everything to do with the supernatural, not the natural. To think that the Spirit isn’t up to dealing with any problem that might come up in a gathering of those who are in Christ is a practical denial of the existence of supernatural reality.

1Corinthians 12-14 gives plenty of practicality as to how that works. Overseers and Elders as rulers aren’t even mentioned. Rather, the Spirit works through certain functions choosing people according to his own will to deal with matters in a gathering. Men choosing men to be rulers in that context, is an abuse of a system set in place by God himself. God calls the ekklesia out of cities. The Churches of Christianity are created by men. They are different in that they have two different lives as their source. When Paul refers to planting and watering earlier in 1Corinthians, he wasn’t referring to planting Churches. He was referring to something happening in the context of a single ekklesia. The foundation of which is Jesus Christ, not men.

As far as Christianity is concerned, it being what it is, a creation of human nature, there is a definite necessity for human rulers that must be obeyed by subjects in the gatherings of the various Christian denominations. So in that sense we agree. In your thread “Everyone Interested in the Church Should Read This”, you bring up a writer in Christianity Today who makes a good case for thinking that Christians aren’t any different than anyone else. And with that I agree. And for them it won’t be any difference either regarding their need for human rule. But for those who are in Christ, there should be a difference that shows that they are following something supernatural, not natural men.

I see a distinct difference between the ekklesia spoken of in the New Testament and the Churches of Christianity. This is a distinction that Christians can’t see. It’s pretty obvious that Witness Lee didn’t see the distinction. Seeing as all he did was to create another Christian denomination, with human rulers and all.

In order for ekklesia to be expressions of the Life of God and the Body of Christ, they must be a lot different than the world or they will just end up being expressions of the world. Both Paul and John speak specifically to cases where ekklesia weren’t living up to the standard of their own intended nature. They were following men, or worse, in one case at least, Satan was involved.

I had the experience once in a Pentecostal meeting where I left hurriedly having had the crap scared out of me because I felt the presence of something I shouldn’t have felt in a Christian meeting. Something not human. Thank God at least that in all the other Churches I attended, I have experienced nothing more than something human. And in rare cases, something of the Holy Spirit.

One can certainly take the view that 21st century Christianity is the result of a historic development that began with the ekklesia in the 1st century. And that is the reason why 21st century Christianity is different from the ekklesia of the 1st century. But taken to its ultimate conclusion, such an idea also must include an ongoing system of rulership throughout Christian history. And the Catholic Church is the only Christian Church that even comes close to making that claim appear valid. Eastern Orthodoxy fills the bill to a lesser degree. Protestant Churches certainly wouldn’t, indeed couldn’t, fit that bill. Seeing as it is simply a rebellion against history and the system of rulership already in place in the 16th century.

MacDuff