[Peter Debelak]

Originally Posted by Igzy

No, I don't see groups as ends in themselves. The end is always the glory of God. I see groups as a normal result of being the social creatures God created us to be.

Think of it like sex. Sex is natural and normal. The problem isn't sex. The problem is how we approach it. People need to learn how to handle sex correctly. The key is not to be suspicious of sex in itself, the key is to understand the pitfalls.

Likewise groups. The answer isn't to teach people to be suspicious of groups in themselves (anymore than the solution is to make people suspicious of sex in itself). The key is to become skilled enough to handle groups (and sex) in a healthy manner.

Running away from or becoming suspicious of something in our created nature is not an answer. Because, as the article said, that is the same as giving up on humanity.

The problem I had with your original position was not outcome, but approach and attitude. I understand being in groups has pitfalls, and I'm not arguing that groups should be permanent. I'm saying we shouldn't be looking for excuses to bail on groups because they hinder our "spirituality." I'm saying we that maybe, just maybe, we need to become more spiritual so that we can negotiate groups better.

The point is the point is not solely our own spirituality. It is not the bottom line anymore than our own personal wealth is. Yes, we seek to gain wealth, but it's not all for us. It's to share with others, too. Part of the reason we have Christ is to share him with others.

The point is not groups, the point is others. We just often need to form groups to help others.

Igzy,

The post you quoted was a very truncated version of my argument - laid out more fully in post #106, below, posted here (I have a habit of writing my "thorough" post first, and then tacking on shorter posts, which causes the original one to get lost...).

Originally Posted by Peter Debelak

Igzy,

I appreciate your reply quite a bit. A HUGE issue for me was my sense of self-worth and growing out of my co-dependence (deriving my identity from how others viewed me.). Your words are very encouraging on this...

But we still have a core disconnect...

Here's where I think it lies:

It’s a difference in our default position on groups, not necessarily a disagreement on outcome.

I am approaching groups with a skepticism – one born from experience and, I think, one that has it’s roots in Scripture (I’ll explain). I see the default of human groups to be one that hinders spirituality. They can, in fact, be great and nurturing of spirituality – but that is not by default. You have to build that into the group dynamic and it has to be an outflow of a focus on individual’s knowing the indwelling Spirit.

You approach groups as good by default and that abuse enters in only as some sort of mutation.

You said that since we were discussing groups in a Christian context, that it should be presumed that we’re contemplating the role of the Spirit. I say, the Bible itself doesn’t support such a view.

Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

These are Christians who were attempting to do good things for God, and doing them in His name. Think about it. If there was a Christian group who was doing good works "in His name" etc.... you would think they're all good to go. Christ doesn't see it that way. So what's missing? It's not assumed that groups doing "Christian things" is what God wants.

In Galatians, Paul describes how groups can foster zealotry – indeed, in the service of their faith – and steal believers away from “the way they began”, that is “in spirit.” Even Peter and Barnabas were susceptible to group pressure.

I agree with you that in terms of outcomes, Christians will and should work together. God made us social creatures and He has a corporate goal.

But natural groups and fallen humanity have built in faults. They are not anomalies. They are inherent. Thus, I am arguing, you need to build in protections. And I don’t think these are out of thin air. I think they have Biblical foundation.

The protection I am suggesting is two-fold:

1) a matter of emphasis: focus on believers learning their spirit and getting rooted in the Word – rather than focusing on the group assuming the individuals will fair just fine; The practical result of this may well entail Christians working together, but each individual has had to go through the process of checking with their indwelling Lord – rather than going along with the group, which is often too easy to do.

2) While Christians will work together and in groups, the initiation of “agendas” or any other “agency” is through direct commission from God to an individual (or several people, but to each one individually). That is, leave “the work” out of the assembly – though they may reinforce eachother. If no individuals have such a direct commission – that’s a good red flag that perhaps it isn’t something that should be done. Often, “workers” who are “full-time” end up manufacturing projects...

Any closer to making sense?

In Love,

Peter

P.S. Sticking to my guns on this is a bit of result of finally finding a modicum of self-worth and having "ownership" over my faith.... Even though I may be wrong, I never would have been able to have this sort of discussion 10 years ago.