[Peter Debelak]

I always forget the order in which people will read things. This is post 3 of 3 (this one, a little more testimonial, to let you know where I'm coming from - the first one, more a response to your specific points).

Originally Posted by Igzy

Peter's idea, to divest from the group all works and place them on individuals is artificial and against the way groups naturally work.

[my emphasis]

I'll be honest that I don't entirely understand where you are coming from either.

Statement's like "that's how groups naturally work" and others, supports the suspicion that contemporary Christianity could just as well be any other organization, just with a different "mission statement."

There is talk of God and the Spirit, but I really don't know how you think He and faith in Him plays into a group dynamic.

I know that on the extreme, you consider such talk "overly spiritual." But there is another side that I'd consider "altogether too human."

I've shared my testimony, but I rejected God entirely for a few years there because when I reflected on my childhood - and how good I was at being a Christian - I realized that I had just mastered a set of cultural norms and mores.

There I was, at 18. "Notable people" praised me and my "spirituality" and "committement to Christ." And I know that I was a farse, a master of the culture - I would be the same if I was raised a Buddhist. And yet they thought I was genuine and spiritual - which spoke to their spirituality as well. So, keep in mind in this discussion: I do "groups" really well. Too well. Put me in a group of Christians and I don't need faith at all to feel good about myself, to do good things for the group, and indeed, for others to think, and praise me for, how "spirtual I am." I singed on to their agendas and accomplised them! That agenda didn't originate from my faith. It didn't originate, as far as I personally was concerned, with God. Yet I "succeed" at it. And that faith-less accomplishment was lauded as being a good "member of the church." That is very damaging to one's faith and speaks to theirs as well.

I abandoned the whole things as a joke.

If "faith" was really just reduced to human culture, albeit with a different vocabulary, there were a lot less boring humans, human pursuits and human cultures to engage with... That's what I thought. So I left.

So I do bristle a bit at arguments like "that's just what group's do." Or "that's just human nature." Exactly my point: there's nothing Christian about it, except that its cloaked in "God's will"-type language, with everyone patting each other on the back.

This is the side that is different than a critique just on the LC. My problem with "group culture" is not just the abuses that can take place (which are many) but also because of how easy it is to be "good at it," simply by mastering cultural norms, as one might in any other human organizations. There's nothing "spiritual" or faith-based about it. This is human tendency, to establish "a way" of doing things and "a way" of thinking, so that we can learn it and master it. God's multifarious wisdom and varied grace isn't so limited. They merge often, but when they don't, they really don't. It is too easy precisely because of "human nature" for people - especially in groups - to replace "faith" with human culture and mores while calling it "faith."

I do realize I'm treading on this ground:

Originally Posted by Igzy

I don't mind someone being a Christian skeptic if he does it honorably. Unfortunately, the two are often mutually exclusive. Funny how that works.

[that's from one of your understandably exhausting discussion with Harold]

But I actually belive I'm attemting to pursue Christian goals while challenging what often seem like human "proxies" for faith-based ways of being.

Sorry, channeling my 18-year-old self there for a second. I did regain a faith... that was mine. Its been a journey, which continues.... (much less co-dependant!). BUt I do care and focus on the fact that my faith is spiritual. I have also had to learn the hard way that "spiritual" often happens in human terms and through other human beings and relationships. But it is still spiritual. "super" natural.

In Love,

Peter