Igzy
My initial contact with the Recovery, at Elden Hall, was between 1970 and the move to Anaheim, whenever that was. Then I traveled from Christian Church to Christian Church for several years. A good way to learn about the true nature and character of Christianity.
About four months ago, I revisited a couple of Recovery churches after well over thirty years. Don’t know why other than it just came to my mind to do so for some reason. I stuck it out for a month in each location. The contrast between then and now is remarkable.
I first happened across the Public Square. A good place, or so I thought, to share that experience. I was able to register, but not to post. I asked about it with no response. So I figure that for some reason they didn’t want me there.
Then I happened across this forum and registered. No problem in that regard.
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The spirit of this forum should be one of being willing to see the other posters' points of view.
Posters who simply hammer their point with no apparent willingness to consider other posters' points of view--i.e. who cannot tell the difference between the Bible and their interpretation of the Bible--will be put on short leashes and given dry doggie treats from the Walmart clearance aisle.
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From your post #11.
For all the complaining from former Recovery people I’ve seen on the two forums, the attitude between the Anaheim Recovery and the former members remains exactly the same. You say with one breath one should be ready to accept the opinions of others, then you turn around and automatically think that because someone has an opinion and doesn’t agree with you that this is true for them, “who cannot tell the difference between the Bible and their interpretation of the Bible”. Among Christians, what the Bible says is very subjective and depends on the individual. Until the individual joins a denomination. Then the subjectivity of the denomination becomes the subjectivity of the individual. Denominations and denominational thinking is prevalent in Christianity. If everyone understood the Bible the same way, there would be no Christian denominations. All Christians would be as unified as Jesus and Paul desired. And believers would still be under the system, hated by former Recovery people for some reason, of one ekklesia one city. Where the name of the ekklesia corresponds to the name of the city, instead of to every other denotation that can be conceived by man.
Concerning, Heb 13:17, the Greek word often translated obey means to be persuaded in or to trust in. It’s related to the same Greek word that means to have faith in or to be convinced about. The Greek word often translated as ruler, refers to those who lead, not in the sense of rule. The Greek word often translated as submit just refers to yielding oneself to. Not as strong as the word submit would imply. So what is being said is “Trust those who lead you and yield to them.” The writer was referring to this situation alone, to this group of people alone. It is not the blanket statement that Christian rulers try to make it. But Christianity is determined to use this verse as one of the verses that show that a Church is to have an authoritative hierarchy. And they can’t even agree as to what constitutes that hierarchy.
And anarchy? Anarchy only implies that you have a group of people walking in the way non-believers walk, instead of walking by rule of the Spirit within. And thus need human rulers to prevent it.
But as with everything in Christianity, that’s just my opinion. What the reality is, is determined by those who determine their own version of reality. And Christians are about as good at agreeing with each other as to what that reality is, as any non-Christian. Even though they have a written account that plainly tells them what that reality is. Even though they supposedly have a Spirit within to guide them to understanding the Bible properly. But Christians are more apt to believe in their interpretations of the Bible than the Bible itself. And some, like the Catholics and Mormons, aren’t satisfied to have a Bible to tell them, but go about creating more writings that tell them more or explain more. Not that Protestants don’t with all their various ideas of what the Bible “is really saying”. Why Witness Lee is blamed for taking advantage of an already existing situation, is beyond my ability to understand.
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In no instance outside the LC system have I ever seen church leaders adhere to one publisher's materials, guest speakers and events and expect their members to do likewise.
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I would point to the Jehovah’s Witnesses as another example as extreme as the Recovery churches. All denominations will emphasize the writings of people in agreement with their own interpretations, even if they use some resources that are used in common among many denominations.
All I wanted to do was to share my own experience of the Recovery then and now, such as it has been. Naturally, I have opinions as to what went on, is going on today, and why. The initial experience, plus what I saw in Christianity that amounted to the same thing, each denomination wearing slightly different colored pants, led me to eventually become a non-Christian. But from what I have been reading on both forums, that would be something that you former Recovery people wouldn’t be interested in. Only those who have managed to keep their Christianity, such as it is, need apply. And then argue simply to argue. That isn’t really sharing. But I guess even that is a matter of my own opinion.
This thread is an example of why I am what I am. For all the claims of being somehow connected to the supernatural, when push comes to shove, one finds that Christians are just as earthly and human as is the rest of humanity. Even to having the need for human rulers, as if their God is dead. A difference that makes no difference is no difference. Even though Peter clearly said there should be only one Lord and that elders should not be Lords. And if you think human rulership in Christianity is anything other than being a Lord, you’re living in an igloo without ever seeing the sun. I should think you would know that even in Christianity, you go against the human Lords, you’re out of that serfdom, out of that very human kingdom.
Fortunately, if you live in America, you can go find another kingdom or create your own. Just happens that Witness Lee was smart enough to create his own. And like any other free enterprise, it’s doing well for all concerned, each according to their own need. Those who need power, or need money, or need a religious crutch, it’s all available in the Recovery. Interesting it’s the ones who need the crutch that provide the rest with the power and the money.
I didn’t need any of those things, not from a Christian denomination. I have all the power I need at home, given to me by those who love me and whom I love. Love is an ethereal something that provides all the power I’ll ever need. I have all the money I or my progeny of the next generation will need.
As it happens, I didn’t become a non-Christian soon enough. Consequently, I’m not just an Agnostic, I’m a religious Agnostic. So I do attend a Christian Church that gives me all the religion I need. According to most of the pattern laid out to the ekklesia in Jerusalem, the first ekklesia (Acts 2:42). I hear the Bible (the Apostles doctrine) read there, pray verbally and by song, take communion (breaking of bread), talk to believers (fellowship, literally sharing) to the extent that I can without being subjected to the form of Closed Communion common to this particular denomination. In Christianity, as with any human society religious or not, about some things, silence is the better part of wisdom. Nevertheless, religiously too, I’m a happy man.
If what the Bible itself says is true, and the God it describes actually exists, as he is described, and if he has truly provided what man needs in his Son Jesus Christ, then I know that the God it describes will take me for what I am and not send me to hell for what Christianity has made me. Christianity, the man-made religion with the primarily denominational character. God knows, if he’s really there to know. And I live in hope that the God of the Bible does indeed exist. Not the interpreted Gods of Christianity, and there is more than one of those Gods. And mostly misunderstood.
I observe that many on the two forums have been on them a long time. Sorry you can’t get a life. There really is more to life than complaining about the foibles of this one Christian denomination. I find it intriguing that someone can claim to leave a denomination, and then spend their life scrutinizing it. Maybe out of a feeling of responsibility to those still within and to those who may become within. Isn’t there a God who led them in and will lead them out if need be? How will rehashing the obvious help them? Say it once and have over with. Humans aren’t so stupid that they can’t get the picture. And not all will agree with the picture anyway.
I want to thank you Igzy for that post. Very revealing. It together with what is going on in these two forums leads me to believe I wouldn’t last long here on your forum anyway. So I can have this little say and take my leave. Though I hate to post and run. I have opinions you wouldn’t be able to accept as anything more than interpretation, no matter how much Bible I quoted. And it is surprising how many fundamentalist types will say that a Biblical quote, no matter how much context is included, is just one’s own interpretation. I was just on a Catholic forum where a Catholic fundamentalist used that argument on me. Went much too well with his fellow fundamentalists and served to give them zero credibility in my eyes.
No doubt you’ll want to destroy this post, seeing as it isn’t much in accordance to what this forum really wants to hear.
Open your minds. Putting away the Recovery is actually a really simple thing. All you have to do is to want to. And if you still feel, like me, you need another form of religion, there are thousands of Christian denominations to choose from, or you can create a new one like Witness Lee did. And a whole slew of non-Christian religions, or you can create a new one like L Ron Hubbard who created Scientology did. The possibilities are endless. The Recovery churches are but a minute drop in a very large bucket.
MacDuff