[Ohio]

You hit me with an overwhelming amount of information in one post, which seemed to focus on a few points ...

Originally Posted by Peter Debelak

That said, just because Jesus didn't get into politics doesn't mean its prohibited. But it might suggest that perhaps we don't use his name when we do. When He lived on earth, He made the choice not to get involved. Perhaps we should respect that choice.

The example of Jesus Himself is quite persuasive for me. I have to admit that nearly all the arguments used to support political activity are derived from O.T. examples. When I first heard of the Dominion Movement, (nominal attempt to stay on topic ) it was from my dear wife who had just heard how the kingdom of God was coming to this earth via the believers invading the seven mountains of human culture. Now, I haven't bought into any of that program yet, but I have allowed my views on Christian service in the world to be altered since I left the narrowness of the recovery. At least now I would not criticize individuals for entering certain arenas.

Originally Posted by Peter Debelak

Second is the nature of God's sovereignty. His wisdom over human history and human societies is so unfathomable. ... His plan is so beyond our comprehension at times. ... So, who are we to say that God doesn't want/need to allow American to turn into Sodom?

This argument triggers two responses in me, both of which support you.

The first is when ministers start out telling us how the "church has failed." They use the moral decline, especially in America, to condemn the church for inactivity. Who are they to condemn the body of Christ? As you say, what if it is no one's fault, but part of God's sovereign plan. These false teachers treat America as if we are the present day Israel, and they are the prophets sent to rebuke God's people. This line of teaching disturbs me.

Secondly is a teaching I heard from W. Nee. The gist of the message was that the Lord's first coming solved all of our problems on a personal level, but none of society's problems will ever be solved until His second coming. There's much truth in what he taught. Dominion Movement proponents would not read that, however.

Originally Posted by Peter Debelak

Even if you are right about the Founders rewriting the commandments into the Constitution, I agree with the Constitution and consent to be governed under it because of non-faith-based reasons. For each part of the Constitution, one can make a reasoned secular argument for why it is a good or bad law. Regardless of whether the people governed by it are of the same faith, they can nonetheless debate its terms from a common set of premises. The rationale for each and every provision can be explained in terms of how society is for the better because of it. They can be defended or argued with on entirely civic terms, regardless of one's faith.

Perhaps the Founders' wisdom was not their own, but rather from above, because of their faith. Yes, its merits can be argued on civic terms, but it provides for liberties which can be easily abused. The constitution was written in the context of religious freedom, enabling God-fearing men to live their faith without government intrusions. Even our courts were bolstered with the conviction that witnesses would be constrained by the final judgment of God. It seems to me that the American way, neutered of God Himself, cannot survive on its own merits, no matter how noble they may be.

Originally Posted by Peter Debelak

Consider, in contrast, if there was an Amendment to the Constitution to define marriage according to the Biblical definition. ... Leaving God out of political arguments clears the way for a shared premise:

will this law benefit or harm society in concrete ways?

Here's where, without God, this argument collapses. Society's harm will always take the backseat to personal liberties. If a woman's "choice" supersedes the rights of the unborn, how can the needs of children for a God-ordained family life supersede the "rights" of gays for same sex unions. Every single medical, social, educational, etc. study has proven that God's ways are the best for society, and prove that the GLBT agenda is damaging, but frankly the politicians and the media don't care. Unless we as a country defer to a "higher power," we will be left to our own devices and continue the downward slide.

Anyways just some thoughts ...