Quote:
Originally Posted by John
Ohio,
You began both of your first two paragraphs with “I have to believe ….” I would like to make it plain that my purpose in posting was this: “What does the Bible say?” That was and is my only concern in these posts.
You stated that it’s not possible to answer my true/false question. I will assume, looking at the context, that you were referring to this question: “Rev 2:2 does not give only church leaders such a responsibility; the whole body has the responsibility. True or false?”
I would say that it is possible to answer the question in the affirmative, because that is what Rev 2:2 indicates when you consider the passage in which it occurs: To the angel of the church in Ephesus write: The One who holds the seven stars in His right hand, the One who walks among the seven golden lampstands, says this: “I know your deeds and your toil and perseverance, and that you cannot tolerate evil men, and you put to the test those who call themselves apostles, and they are not, and you found them to be false ... He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will grant to eat of the tree of life which is in the Paradise of God.” (Rev 2:1–2, 7 NASB) Further, you asked me if I was referring to the whole body in Ephesus or of Christ. I hope that the context of Rev 2:2 quoted above makes it clear. In the Revelation passage, we can see that the writing is addressed to the angel of the church in Ephesus and ends with the plea to any who has an ear to hear what the Spirit says to the churches. The passage, then, applies to all believers, not just leaders, since leaders are not even mentioned and whoever will is given the opportunity to overcome. As anyone can see, the passage does not even mention leaders, much less limit itself to them; therefore, it cannot support a claim about leaders as a separate class.
It’s one thing to state what one thinks, feels, or believes, which you are free to do; it’s quite another to state that the Bible supports a statement, or to give a reference as if it supports a statement, when the reference doesn’t fully address the statement or is taken out of context. All I am bringing out is what the Bible says and what it does not say. |
John, you may think that you only desire to know “
What does the Bible say?” but I found that it was really your own interpretation of what you thought the Bible said. That's fine with me, but since I tried to be as gentlemanly as possible, I used the expression “
I have to believe ….” the scripture says such and such to indicate how I view these scriptures. Without arguing the validity of my expression “
I have to believe ….”, suffice it to say that it is my own understanding of these verses.
I also found your questions to be manipulative. They force an answer which reinforces your own interpretation of scripture. Instead of dodging the obvious trap, I tried my best to answer the questions by explaining why they forced the reader into an unacceptable yes/no position.
For example, the letter was addressed to the messenger of the church. Who is this messenger? Do you really know that it was not some particular brother in the lead? The Lord speaks to them "I know your works ... and you have tried them." This sounds to me, not as a collective, but that the Son of Man was commending each one for their works, each one for their part in not bearing evil men, and each one for their part in trying the so-called apostles.
We don't know the details, but we cannot assume that this was done by a democratic committee of every single church member. Such a church as Ephesus surely had those more mature ones, those less mature but learning, and those young ones not sure what was going on, like John speaks of in his epistle -- the fathers, the young men, and the young children. (I John 2.13) John was active in Ephesus, so his first epistle was also directed to them in part and also read by them. Why would the church even judge these evil ones unless there were young ones and new believers in the church that were adversely affected by these evil men and false apostles. The Lord here is commending the older saints within the church for their works and their labor and their endurance which preserved the young ones and the future of the church and was a needed education to the "young men" who would one day lead the church of God.
Of course the charge to overcome applies to all the believers, "let him hear what the Spirit says." Peter instructs us that "no verse is of private interpretation," and that we need the scripture to interpret the scripture. You seem to want to discredit the place for leaders and the role they have in the church. The N.T. is filled with exhortations for both the leaders and the saints in general. I must take this in view when I approach a verse like Revelation 2.2.