[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by John

[LIST]Heb 13:17 does not give church leaders such a right and obligation. True or false?

Ephesians 5:21 is a great verse, and I think that it is important to use it appropriately because it introduces Paul’s discussion about the marriage relationship. This verse is often overlooked by husbands when they want to require obedience from their wives by quoting Ephesians 5:22 in isolation. Actually, Ephesians 5:21, in context, speaks of an attitude of submission by all parties rather than one person having a necessity to obey another:

And be not drunk with wine, in which is profligacy, but be filled full with spirit, speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and playing music in your hearts to the Lord, giving thanks always for all things, in the name of our Lord, Jesus Christ, to our God and Father, being subject to one another in the fear of Christ. (18–21, Concordant Literal)

I hope that we can agree that husbands should not be bullying their wives, demanding obedience, determining what they can read, vetting whom they can listen to, insisting on being the only one who gets to talk, etc. The marriage is to be a partnership, if you will. In the same way, if someone in a church actually does have the gift of leading, they should lead according to this portion in Ephesians, in an attitude of submission to all the members of the church—in the fear of Christ.

Because of the emphasis in your presentation (possibly unintended?), I brought up 1 Corinthians 14 because that passage depicts a meeting in which those who will, so to speak, can participate rather than a meeting in which a leader controls who gets to speak. This chapter stands in contrast to the way in which meetings are generally done in much of Christianity. I am happy that you brought up Ephesians 5:21, since it supports my view of how brothers and sisters in the church should relate to one another. This verse does not support, however, what is often the case in much of Christianity and is, I think, most noticeable in Christian meetings: an expected and accepted one-way obedience to leaders.

What do you think?

A brother I knew in the local churches quoted Hebrews 13:17 when I brought out the concerns unveiled in Speaking the Truth in Love. Implied, submission is absolute. Wait a minute, these brothers were leaders too. If submission is absolute, submission to whom?
As for Ephesians 5:21, Amen John! Many have missed the mark on Ephesians 5:21. Given the husband bears the greater responsibility, that does not mean they lord over their wives. Rather as verse 25 says; "Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her,".