[Thankful Jane]

Originally Posted by Peter Debelak

Dear Jane:

Originally Posted by Peter Debelak

I don't disagree with the master/slave analogy. My response is along the same lines as my last response to you in the "Last Adam" thread (did you get a chance to look at that? I know you've been pretty swamped). I keep coming back to this and related topics because, the way you are articulating the experience is a view that has caused me much mental disorder. Really. Read my description of the "angst" I've wrestled with in the "Last Adam" thread. In specific response to you here, though:

What about the law of sin and death? I don't obey that law because I'll get a ticket or get lashes from my master - as if its the external law of a kingdom (which is what a strict and exclusive master/slave analogy would turn it into). I obey that law because it is within me and operates like a law of nature. I do even that which I do not want to do. So did Paul. It compels me. Its not because an external master orders me to. Its because something within me compels me to.

I don't care "where" Satan or sin dwells as far as the complete theology goes - and, as such, I don't really care if Lee was right or wrong on Satan dwelling in our flesh. And the fact that the law of sin and death operates within me did make me an automaton - at least until the law of the spirit of life freed me. As one who has been saved, I'm not automaton now either.

At any rate, thoughts on "the law of sin and death" as an internal force?

In Love,

Peter

P.S. Have you ever dealt extensively with an alcoholic? I think sin works the same way with all of us, but it is really stark and clear - less subtle - with someone with an outward addiction.

Hi Peter, I am sorry I am so slow responding to your post and that I never responded to you on the other thread. It isn't because I didn't want to. Also, I'm sorry for skipping over so much other discussion here. I just saw your last post when I was ready to post this one. (Things move too fast!!) Maybe what I've written will be of some help, so here goes:

I am not saying that you have an external master who "tells" you to do something. The essence of bondage is that you are forced to do what you do not want to do because the one forcing you has more power than you and also has the right to control you.

One question I had for years was how some Christians seem just start growing normally after they are born again, while others seem to struggle with bondage issues (alchoholism or other such addictive behaviors, longterm depression, etc.) and not grow much at all after years of being a believer. When I first read Neil Anderson's book The Bondage Breaker, I started to get some understanding of this in a way that made sense to me.

I learned that it was possible for believers to be in bondage (meaning you continue to be driven to do things you don't want to do). This could be for a variety of reasons. One reason is the presence of ongoing sin for which there is no repentance which may seem to be unrelated to the problem in question. The person may not even be aware they are sinning. Another reason is deception (believing things that are not true). There are other reasons. I think you might benefit from reading this book if you feel so inclined.

I am not trying to objectify the experience we have in our flesh. The overpowering feeling that comes from within ourselves is very real. Anderson explains that any habitual sin in our life is legal ground for the devil to afflict us and cause us to do evil things. He actually overpowers us. In the same way that he injects thoughts in our mind that seem like they are our own, he can empower us to do evil and it seems the source of that power is in us.

I do not think this means that Satan himself is indwelling our body from birth. (Why is this thought a problem? Because it can cause us to have unhealthy self loathing. There doesn't seem much way of escape or peace until the rapture. The Bible tells us that we are to take care of our body and appreciate it as God's temple, not look at it as some piece of real estate with a permanent squatter living in it.)

Satan is not omnipresent or omniscient or omnipotent. Only God is these things. He doesn't work by indwelling us himself. The Bible makes it plain that Satan has an army of fallen angels and evil spirits under his command through whom he does his evil work. He uses these beings to carry out his plans against us. No doubt sometimes he is directly on the scene, as with Judas, and as we know he will be with the antichrist.

I have been personally involved in seeing some people find freedom from years of bondage when they removed the legal ground from their lives that Satan had to afflict them. They did this by specific repentance for habitual sin in their life, after God gave them light on what that sin was.

Here is one example: My husband and I were close friends with a couple who were also Christians. They left the LC after being in it for only a few years. The husband had left divinity school to join the LC and after leaving the LC, he struggled for years with bitterness and depression. On a number of occasions we heard him say some pretty shocking things about God. His wife had wept and prayed for him and had confided in me how upsetting it was to see what had happened to him.

A number of years passed and we had not seen them. (They lived in another city.) One day, not long after my husband and I had been helped by Neil Anderson's book, the husband of this couple called us and came to spend the night with us. He was on a business trip. That evening he confided in us his desperate need to find God again, and his feeling of complete and utter helplessness and hopelessness. He said no matter what he did, he just couldn't seem to get through or find God. He felt he was in some kind of torment. He said God never answered his prayers and it was like the heavens were closed to him.

My husband shared with him a little about what we had learned from Anderson's book and some of the experiences we had had. He was desperate for help. We all sat in our living room and prayed asking God to show him any ongoing sin in his life for which he had not repented. As we prayed, one word came into my mind. The word was "slander." I then told him that I had heard him slander God terribly on numerous occasions over the years. At first he seemed surprised to hear this, but as I gave him an example or two, he hung his head. I suggested that he should repent for doing this.

He sat there silently for a few minutes thinking about that and then said he wanted to repent. He was truly penitent and after a few more minutes of silence with his head bowed, he prayed and asked God to forgive him for his slanderous speaking about Him.

After this, he looked at us and said, "Nothing has changed. I don't feel any different." We said, "Well, it can't hurt to repent for slandering God." The next morning before he left, he told us again, he was in the same condition as when he came. We felt sad for him, but didn't know what else to tell him except that we would pray for him.

Two days later we received a phone call from him and his wife. The wife began with this statement, "I don’t know what you did to my husband, but thank you!" She described how the day before he had been outside working on their car, when all of a sudden he came running into the house. He ran across the living room to the corner and stood on his head, shouting something about being free. (This was something they had done over the years when something exciting or extremely noteworthy happened to them. They had seen Scrooge do this when he got delivered from his selfishness in an old, old movie. J) He proceeded to tell her what had happened to him.

He had been working on his car for a period of time and could not figure out why it wouldn’t start. He said he got more and more upset and that he eventually gave up in frustration. Then he decided to pray. He asked God to help him fix the car. He said he immediately knew what to do and did it. He turned the key and the car started.

He then proceeded to tell us that from that moment forward he realized that everything had changed. The dark cloud he had been under was gone and since that time he had been full of joy at having the Lord’s presence again.

About twelve years passed before I saw him again. When I did, he took me aside and told me that from the time of his repentance for slandering God to the present he had continued to walk with the Lord in freedom. His old anger and bitter expressions and depression were a thing of the past.

My point is that the ongoing sin in this brother’s life was legal ground for the devil to oppress him for many years. He was a Christian in bondage. When he repented the devil lost that ground and he found freedom.

Neil A. says that one of the most bondage engendering sins is unforgiveness. He encourages people to pray and ask the Lord to bring to their mind the names of any persons they have not forgiven. God is very faithful to answer this kind of prayer!!

I am not sure I am answering your question, but I hope this helps some. I have not dealt extensively with alchoholism. Anderson’s book does address this kind of addiction. Things like alcoholism and other addictions are more like fruits in a person’s life which have another underlying cause.

As usual, what is high on my list is not doctrinal perfection for the sake of intellectual satisfaction. I am into what helps people. Having a healthy understanding of how the powers of darkness work and the way to find lasting freedom from their attacks is important since we live in a world that is full of evidence of their persistent activity, not only in unbelievers but also in Christians.

Nuff said.

Thankful Jane