[aron]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

I’m not quite sure I’ve ever heard something like “the fixed structure of the assembly”. It does certainly rub against what Lee (and others) have taught about the “organic” nature of the Church. Of course there is a lot of scriptural references that would indicate an organic element… “the Body of Christ”, “the bride”, etc, but let’s face it, these “spiritual” terms really don’t help us when it comes to some of the practical, nuts and bolts workings of the local church – the members of the Body that we are in direct contact with. And they most certainly don’t help us with the matter of leadership – local, regional or otherwise.

Lee's organic church was only as organic as he wanted it to be. And over time it grew decidedly less organic, from what I saw. The letter of the law superseded the spirit. I don't recall much talk of "one trumpet" or "one apostle per age" in the first couple of decades of the Lord's Recovery's U.S. experience. But these came to be seen as essential to maintaining unity, as time went on, and experiences accrued, and new rules for"maintaining order" arose.

Many here have made the point that the TNCCL attempt to reveal the biblical, practical, nuts-and-bolts workings of the local church leave much to be desired; that the proposed remedy led to something worse than the perceived disease. I myself am not an expert on TNCCL, but at least I have seen something in the Bible which seems to flatly refute Nee's "normal" one-city-one-church model: namely that the NT allows, even expects, multiple ekklesia in large metropolitan areas, if you interpret ekklesia as it was originally used (as a meeting, or assembly).

As far as leadership, that gets to the heart of my question. What do you see as the structure of leadership in the ekklesia, as presented by Jesus? And secondly, what of the later emendments in Acts and the epistles should we recognize as essential, and what are not?

I would argue that the basics, such as don't argue with one another, don't steal, get drunk and fornicate, and don't practice witchcraft, transfer pretty seamlessly from the gospels to the rest of the NT and thence beyond. Beyond that I don't see any essential fixed structure.

Originally Posted by UntoHim

I think to avoid this matter of official, structural leadership within the Church, and just consider that “Jesus is our leader” is to invite all sorts of confusion, and history has proven that this kind of stance certainly does not prevent abuse. I think the best example of what I am talking about here would be the “house-church movement”...The general idea is that “Jesus is our leader” and “every member is as important as the next and so all should function”. But the practical outworking of this is usually confusion, with people just speaking out all sorts of nonsense.

I could just as easily say (with more evidence, as it's been more prevalent) that history has proven that the use of official, structural leadership within the church hasn't prevented confusion and abuse, either.

So back to my question: what structural essentials do we clearly see in the text of the NT?

Originally Posted by UntoHim

I think others have mentioned something about “those with gifts” or “gifts to the Body”. This is the key in my view. I think we’re all familiar with Ephesians 4:7,8-10-12

But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ's gift. Therefore it says, "WHEN HE ASCENDED ON HIGH, HE LED CAPTIVE A HOST OF CAPTIVES, AND HE GAVE GIFTS TO MEN."…And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ;

To deny that these were already known “positions” (for lack of better word..insert “fuctions” if that suits you better) in the early Church is to me to be quite naïve. The only term here that may have a totally foreign meaning to us in the 21st century may be “prophets”, the others can, and should have, biblical significance and weight for all Christians, I believe.

Let me give a different perspective, on the practical, nuts-and-bolts working-out of functions within the ekklesia. Look at the "virtual" ekklesia, the gathering together on an internet forum. I am a veteran of both this forum and the old Bereans forum, having written several hundred posts on each, and having read several thousand more. Now, I would argue that the varied gifts were and have been made manifested. Some are more logical, some more emotional; some are more rigid, some more loose. Some quote scriptures, some use more history and/or common sense. Some are more pro-active, some more reactive. Some just seem to post to "shoot down", or at least prune, the self-assertive comments made by the more bold and/or dogmatic posters. Some are more "builders" and some are more "bashers". All of these varieties of gifts collectively create an on-line conversation.

In other words, structure organically emerges without the requirements of formal offices. Order arises out of chaos. The varied gifts make themselves manifest. I would argue that in an environment of mutual respect, and common concern for the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ, and for the expression of His kingdom here on earth, that these "gifts to men" will become self-evident.