[OBW]

Originally Posted by Nell

If you haven't read the book, we have two choices:

1) Read the book then discuss the 10 items in context.
2) Discuss the 10 items as another topic, apart from the book "Toxic Faith" by Arterbern and Felton.

If we need to discuss them in the context in which they are described in the book, then either the topic requires the reading of the book, or you should put them in context (short of quoting the entire book).

OK, add to what I said that these items, by existing in society and culture at large, also exist in the church. I'm not saying "so what?" but instead saying that we can't just run off and say that the LC is there. We have to do the work of establishing that they have crossed some line that goes from some innocuous level to that of being truly abusive.

I would agree that, locality by locality, there are various traits as different levels. And further there is a level of abuse seen in the hierarchy that emanates from Anaheim. Where are the examples that prove the crossing of the line and where are they messing. While the LC is at one level, at least with respect to those who follow the LSM, a denomination. But even among those are differences. It is hard to paint the errors of Ray Graver onto the church in Atlanta, or the errors of Ron Kangas onto the church in Denver.

My point is that a list is just a list. We can say that some/all of them can be found somewhere on the list. But that is not proof of anything. It is in a pattern of actual abuse that is linked to the list. We can say that they are deep into the list, but if we cannot substantiate our claims, we are no better as we point at them than they are when they point at Christianity.

I realize that the discussion is just getting off the ground. But it was started with several stark statements by various writers concerning issues with abusive religious systems, cults, etc. The statements did not provide a basis or linkage to anything. It was sort of like getting the quote of the day via email with absolutely no commentary.

SC saw some problems with an undirected topic (or more correctly series of topics since each one has its own thread) that only provides out of context quotes.

I do not suggest that there is nothing to find or nowhere to go. But there needs to be direction. And sending everyone to read these books is not a viable option for most of us. I already have a reading list. I have already bypassed several good books because there is already too much.

Can someone provide ground rules for the discussion? Can we agree that simply saying “it is so” is not worthy of the bandwidth required to transmit the bytes through the internet? Can someone with knowledge of the books provide context?

BTW. Your comments about God’s word as definitive for “faith” is problematic in a discussion about the LC since they have added that one church one city is one of the six tenets of the faith, per Lee’s 1971 book on the subject, The Speciality, Generality, and Practicality of the Church Life. So we are already at an impasse when discussing with the LC.