Local Church Discussions - View Single Post - How has the LRC affected your view of "Babylon?"

John · 04-08-2012, 02:49 PM

QUOTE from UntoHim in post #22:

Ok, I see that I did not make myself clear. With the little time I have I’ll try to make amends. The “something from somewhere” is the record of the early church as presented to us in Acts and in the writings of the apostles, mostly Paul and Peter. All through their writings we see clear indications that they themselves were taught and mentored by the Lord Jesus himself. It seems to me that part of this teaching and mentoring was to establish them as leaders in the early church, as well as to pass these leadership qualities (teaching, shepherding, administering, etc) on to a new generation of disciples. As I noted in my original post, I think the purity of this “dynamic” got corrupted by man, but it does not change the fact that there was clearly an establishment and training of leadership in the early church. If you feel that there is some sort of discontinuation of this establishment of leadership (maybe as some believe that there was a discontinuation of apostleship, the gifts, etc?) then maybe we can just agree to disagree on this.

No, I didn’t feel attacked at all. I hope you didn’t either. It’s just some bantering back and forth between two people on an Internet forum. The problem is that there has been so little of that around here I think we are both just a little out of practice! Well you have read my response above so you already know that the qualifications to Timothy are just a very small part of what I was talking about, so no need for me to defend something I wasn’t claiming in the first place.

UntoHim,

In a nutshell, your rework of the thesis is better than your first submission; however, I still have problems with it. I’m not suggesting that you try to improve it, though; since I’m not that interested in pursuing the details of this topic, which would probably be very time-consuming.

Just so you’ll know, two glaring problems I have with your latest are these:

To give the following as your biblical support is not quite kosher: “the record of the early church as presented to us in Acts and in the writings of the apostles, mostly Paul and Peter.” (One shouldn’t have to read the whole New Testament subsequent to the Gospels and try to figure out what you’re leaning on to support your idea.)
Paul was not mentored by Jesus (at least while Jesus was on earth teaching the other disciples)

Se-Man-tics

I certainly don’t want to go overboard with a discussion of semantics, since you stated previously that you didn’t want to discuss it in relation to the word, “system.” Hopefully, it won’t be too tiresome if I present just a little bit from my thoughts about words you have used that I find problematic.

I will not bother much with the meaning of “training,” since you have dropped it from your latest thesis. Suffice it to say that it does have negative connotations for some of us, especially for any of us who attended Witness Lee Living Stream Ministry trainings and were coerced into giving over control of our free wills to him. Please note that, at least in my opinion, the word is not used much in Bible translations (KJV, NASB, or NIV) and doesn’t appear to me to be used in the way in which you tried to apply it.

Next, when I read the word, “mentoring,” I automatically think of the business world where I work and someone older helping someone younger move upward in the pecking order. (I know that this is not the exact meaning of the word.) I’ve also heard the word applied to clubs in which someone older helps someone younger with life choices. One way to reduce these kinds of problems is to stick with words used in generally-accepted English translations, such as those noted above. (I don’t personally rely on the NIV, since it is more liberal than the NASB, for example, but used it for the purpose of this response to be as fair as I could.) A quick search for “mentor,” “mentored,” and “mentoring” in these versions did not turn up any hits.

In my opinion, it is much safer to use the language in versions like the ones mentioned to say something like, “Jesus taught the disciples.” We should be able to agree on this. We can also write that others taught, such as Paul and Peter; and, in addition, we can say that we all teach at one time or another. Also, by using “teach,” we can avoid the whole theological discussion that could ensue over whether or not Jesus mentored anyone. In other words, the connotations associated with a mentor may not be what we should associate with God.

This “ship” has not sailed

I also have a problem when you build a “ship.” The whole idea of leadership has been carried to an extreme in today’s Christianity, in my opinion. It is one thing when Christ gives a person with a particular gift to the church; it is quite another when Christians decide to initiate and implement a program of leadership training. The last “regular” church that Jane and I were in instituted a leadership training program to be carried out in all the home meetings gathered under its aegis. It was at that point that she and I headed for the exit.

As far as the word “leadership” being used in Bible translations goes, here are the results: I did not get a hit in the KJV; and, there was one instance of it in the NASB, but only in the Old Testament. The NIV had one instance in the New Testament, and it was about our friend, Matthias. (I used a different version of an online NIV and did uncover another “ship.”) I am not saying by any of this that the idea of leadership is not to be found anywhere in the Bible; however, I have not seen yet any established program of leadership training, such as what you seem to have indicated and such as one might find in today’s milieu of schools and seminars. It seems that many want to assume that such a thing existed because that’s what we see in Christianity today. Maybe it is there in the Bible, and I just haven’t seen it; or, maybe some are just reading it in where it doesn’t exist.

Bantering attack

Finally, I already wrote that I felt attacked by you (so I don’t know why you hoped that I didn’t feel so), and it had nothing to do with me being out of practice as you suggest. Also, I do not consider my postings to be bantering as you think of yours; mine are more serious to me than that.

As you can see by this response and my two “papers” that I used to start other threads, it takes me quite awhile to address an idea. At this point, I still don’t think that the thesis has been described in enough specificity, along with specific references from the Bible, for us to be able to discuss it intelligently. I still have not staked out a position, although you probably have a better idea where I’m coming from by reading my posts. In my opinion, many of us humans want to figure out what kinds of church leaders we should have and then prepare some kind of training regimen to create such church leaders. I don’t believe that such a thing can be supported by the scriptures—at least in the more formal sense that I have understood you to have presented.

As I’ve tried to let you know, I am not really interested in fleshing out the details of all the roles for people in the Bible and how they were carried forward (and it may not even be possible to do so). It should go without saying that Jesus taught his disciples and they in turn taught others. How else would the gospel go forward if no one taught? Everyone can be a teacher in this way, however. The problem comes in, I think, when we try to talk about positions in the church. What constitutes an apostle or a teacher and what, exactly, do those kinds of folks do? This is a topic that is open for debate; but, again, I don’t really want to debate it. I’m not that interested in those kinds of details and think that they cause more problems than they might solve.

Finally, let me leave you with one of my favorite verses regarding this topic:

Do not be called leaders; for One is your Leader, that is, Christ. (Matt 23:10, NASB)

04-08-2012, 02:49 PM	#38
John Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 62	Re: How has the LRC affected your view of "Babylon?" QUOTE from UntoHim in post #22: Ok, I see that I did not make myself clear. With the little time I have I’ll try to make amends. The “something from somewhere” is the record of the early church as presented to us in Acts and in the writings of the apostles, mostly Paul and Peter. All through their writings we see clear indications that they themselves were taught and mentored by the Lord Jesus himself. It seems to me that part of this teaching and mentoring was to establish them as leaders in the early church, as well as to pass these leadership qualities (teaching, shepherding, administering, etc) on to a new generation of disciples. As I noted in my original post, I think the purity of this “dynamic” got corrupted by man, but it does not change the fact that there was clearly an establishment and training of leadership in the early church. If you feel that there is some sort of discontinuation of this establishment of leadership (maybe as some believe that there was a discontinuation of apostleship, the gifts, etc?) then maybe we can just agree to disagree on this. No, I didn’t feel attacked at all. I hope you didn’t either. It’s just some bantering back and forth between two people on an Internet forum. The problem is that there has been so little of that around here I think we are both just a little out of practice! Well you have read my response above so you already know that the qualifications to Timothy are just a very small part of what I was talking about, so no need for me to defend something I wasn’t claiming in the first place. UntoHim, In a nutshell, your rework of the thesis is better than your first submission; however, I still have problems with it. I’m not suggesting that you try to improve it, though; since I’m not that interested in pursuing the details of this topic, which would probably be very time-consuming. Just so you’ll know, two glaring problems I have with your latest are these: To give the following as your biblical support is not quite kosher: “the record of the early church as presented to us in Acts and in the writings of the apostles, mostly Paul and Peter.” (One shouldn’t have to read the whole New Testament subsequent to the Gospels and try to figure out what you’re leaning on to support your idea.) Paul was not mentored by Jesus (at least while Jesus was on earth teaching the other disciples) Se-Man-tics I certainly don’t want to go overboard with a discussion of semantics, since you stated previously that you didn’t want to discuss it in relation to the word, “system.” Hopefully, it won’t be too tiresome if I present just a little bit from my thoughts about words you have used that I find problematic. I will not bother much with the meaning of “training,” since you have dropped it from your latest thesis. Suffice it to say that it does have negative connotations for some of us, especially for any of us who attended Witness Lee Living Stream Ministry trainings and were coerced into giving over control of our free wills to him. Please note that, at least in my opinion, the word is not used much in Bible translations (KJV, NASB, or NIV) and doesn’t appear to me to be used in the way in which you tried to apply it. Next, when I read the word, “mentoring,” I automatically think of the business world where I work and someone older helping someone younger move upward in the pecking order. (I know that this is not the exact meaning of the word.) I’ve also heard the word applied to clubs in which someone older helps someone younger with life choices. One way to reduce these kinds of problems is to stick with words used in generally-accepted English translations, such as those noted above. (I don’t personally rely on the NIV, since it is more liberal than the NASB, for example, but used it for the purpose of this response to be as fair as I could.) A quick search for “mentor,” “mentored,” and “mentoring” in these versions did not turn up any hits. In my opinion, it is much safer to use the language in versions like the ones mentioned to say something like, “Jesus taught the disciples.” We should be able to agree on this. We can also write that others taught, such as Paul and Peter; and, in addition, we can say that we all teach at one time or another. Also, by using “teach,” we can avoid the whole theological discussion that could ensue over whether or not Jesus mentored anyone. In other words, the connotations associated with a mentor may not be what we should associate with God. This “ship” has not sailed I also have a problem when you build a “ship.” The whole idea of leadership has been carried to an extreme in today’s Christianity, in my opinion. It is one thing when Christ gives a person with a particular gift to the church; it is quite another when Christians decide to initiate and implement a program of leadership training. The last “regular” church that Jane and I were in instituted a leadership training program to be carried out in all the home meetings gathered under its aegis. It was at that point that she and I headed for the exit. As far as the word “leadership” being used in Bible translations goes, here are the results: I did not get a hit in the KJV; and, there was one instance of it in the NASB, but only in the Old Testament. The NIV had one instance in the New Testament, and it was about our friend, Matthias. (I used a different version of an online NIV and did uncover another “ship.”) I am not saying by any of this that the idea of leadership is not to be found anywhere in the Bible; however, I have not seen yet any established program of leadership training, such as what you seem to have indicated and such as one might find in today’s milieu of schools and seminars. It seems that many want to assume that such a thing existed because that’s what we see in Christianity today. Maybe it is there in the Bible, and I just haven’t seen it; or, maybe some are just reading it in where it doesn’t exist. Bantering attack Finally, I already wrote that I felt attacked by you (so I don’t know why you hoped that I didn’t feel so), and it had nothing to do with me being out of practice as you suggest. Also, I do not consider my postings to be bantering as you think of yours; mine are more serious to me than that. As you can see by this response and my two “papers” that I used to start other threads, it takes me quite awhile to address an idea. At this point, I still don’t think that the thesis has been described in enough specificity, along with specific references from the Bible, for us to be able to discuss it intelligently. I still have not staked out a position, although you probably have a better idea where I’m coming from by reading my posts. In my opinion, many of us humans want to figure out what kinds of church leaders we should have and then prepare some kind of training regimen to create such church leaders. I don’t believe that such a thing can be supported by the scriptures—at least in the more formal sense that I have understood you to have presented. As I’ve tried to let you know, I am not really interested in fleshing out the details of all the roles for people in the Bible and how they were carried forward (and it may not even be possible to do so). It should go without saying that Jesus taught his disciples and they in turn taught others. How else would the gospel go forward if no one taught? Everyone can be a teacher in this way, however. The problem comes in, I think, when we try to talk about positions in the church. What constitutes an apostle or a teacher and what, exactly, do those kinds of folks do? This is a topic that is open for debate; but, again, I don’t really want to debate it. I’m not that interested in those kinds of details and think that they cause more problems than they might solve. Finally, let me leave you with one of my favorite verses regarding this topic: Do not be called leaders; for One is your Leader, that is, Christ. (Matt 23:10, NASB)