[OBW]

Originally Posted by Igzy

I have to be honest that it seems to me in reaction to the LRC you have lost a little baby with the bathwater. The fact is, God is all you need. God's salvation cannot be disconnected from God himself. God's blessing cannot be disconnected from God himself, and God's commission cannot be carried out, let alone understood, apart from God himself. And being connected with God himself requires abiding.

I'll start at the end. Being connected with God is abiding. That is what I realized for myself was the disconnect. I was looking for something more than being connected and thereby receiving what the connection provided. And I'm not just talking about being saved = being connected. We keep looking for something that is more than being actively connected that must be done before we can assert that we are abiding and then start doing something. We are over-thinking abiding. We make it into its own activity that must be accomplished before anything else can go on. That is not what the metaphor I see would suggest.

I am not throwing anything out. I agree that God is all we need. But even in saying that, do you suggest that we should just stop eating because we don't need that? Even saying "God is all you need" is a statement that is not absolutely, literally just that. Unless you are simply ready to die and move on to the next life. In fact, where does it say that God is all you need? What is the context? Is it in juxtaposition to your actual needs to remain physically alive? There is great meaning to the phrase. But it is not just 5 words that mean literally exactly that to the exclusion of everything else. It has a specific meaning that is not to the exclusion of many other needs.

I am suggesting that in the LRC we added much activity, importance, and time to what we thought was abiding. We needed to establish some kind of history of abiding. Then we might not be dead. But (as I keep coming back to) Paul did not say to do a lot of stuff and when you think you have done enough then you will fulfill the righteousness of the law. He said to set your mind and walk. No big formula. I would suggest that this is not much different than saying "abide and do."

But we are so focused on the abiding. What is it? How do we do it? How can we be sure we have really been abiding? Constantly worrying about whether at this moment we are abiding? Taking note that while we were "doing" we didn't constantly think about Jesus and therefore were not abiding?

You think I have gone too far to the obedience and doing side of the equation. I doubt I have gone far enough. And probably few of us have if we are too concerned about whether we are abiding. Do your reading. Your meditation. Take a little time through the day to refocus (however you do that — reading, prayer. . .). Accept that we are not capable of multitasking (not really). Get set and go. Otherwise we are too worried about the "spiritual" and worthless in the practical.

I seem to be pushing the "doing' so much because my observation is that even those who have been in very good, spiritually and doctrinally founded, Evangelical groups are way to much for more knowledge. More spiritual stuff. And not really much for "works." We may actually live in a righteous manner. But we still feel that there is something wrong with any kind of social outreach. Especially if there is any chance that we can't just be preaching the gospel the whole time. We put stipulations on our service. So we don't do too much of it. We let the "liberal" churches that we don't even think are really Christian do it for us. What does that say about us and our doing? Way short.

I'm talking about me too.

Originally Posted by Igzy

You have to recall that the early LRC was a reaction to dead works. "Dead works" is a biblical phrase (Heb 9:14). Yes, it was referring specifically to Jewish works, but there's no doubt Christian works can be dead as well.

Yes, they can be dead. But the presumption within the LRC is that they simply are dead. They aren't abiding the way we are.

How does anyone determine that about another? How do we simply call the works of much of anyone "dead"? Surely you can preach to the choir that we need to be careful not to just be doing things because we think we are supposed to but without maintaining that connection with God. But knowing that certain others aren't doing it? How do we know that?

Originally Posted by Igzy

On the flip side, abiding without the issue being laboring for the Lord is an oxymoron. Jesus' prescription for abiding contained the thought that our subsequent doing would not amount to nothing. James says true faith manifests works. So anyone who says "we don't need" works does not understand that true abiding issues in good works, whatever they may be.

And we clearly are on the same page here. And on to the end.