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John · 08-06-2008, 04:10 PM

Well, I’ve noticed this discussion about James Barber and his progeny. It’s been suggested that these are extremes and maybe not “probative.” I believe that these testimonies, and others like them, must be kept in mind and not discarded when dealing with The Local Church issue.

Whether or not these two sons of a foundational, tier-one elder describe an extreme of the subject or not, I don’t know. What I do know is that their experiences are not isoloated. The “rule” of their father in the home was not limited to the home. Yes, it went out to the whole of “The Church in Oklahoma City” and not in a good way.

My son still periodically gets information about the people with whom he associated there in his youth. Some years back, he mentioned that he didn’t know of any former Local Church young person from OKC who wasn’t in a very bad situation. Not only were the ones he knew about not following the Lord, they were involved in everything from dealing drugs to exotic dancing. I pray that their situations have changed for the better by now. (Of course, my son didn’t know everyone’s situation.)

Okay, you say, so OKC was problematic to our study. Was it an anomoly? No, many former Local Church members know something of abuse, either directly or indirectly. The Barbers certainly were in an extreme situation, but they were not the only ones. I daresay that many Local Church experiences were extreme. This forum exists just because of the extremes.

Okay, you say again, that was just OKC and one of Witness Lee’s former top lieutenants. Well, I say, “How much evidence do you need?” I witnessed Benson Phillips and Ray Graver and their strong-arm tactics in Texas. They are today’s leaders.

So, when we look at the Barbers and attempt to discard their written experiences and observations as an extreme, remember that their extremes are what we all experienced. Their experiences don’t just frame the edges of some philosophical argument, their pain is our pain, unless we somehow intellectually divorce ourselves from the body of Christ.

I am very sure that we would have more of these same kinds of testimonies if the ones with the experiences knew where to come and weren’t too afraid or traumatized to share them. In fact, I recently heard of the abuse that another former Local Church elder regularly dished out to his family. I was genuinely shocked to hear about this person. That he would be abusive to his family was so out of character with his public persona.

You may think to yourself, “Well, it didn’t affect me where I was.” Oh, really? Did you ever attend a training? Did you ever submit to the so-called vision of Christ and the Church? Are you so sure that the haughty spirit of Witness Lee did not filter down to your assembly? Witness Lee taught us how to despise others. He also taught the leaders, by example, how to lord it over others. And, by example, he also taught, at least the males, how to be abusive.

Here is the bottom line for me: Local Church and Living Stream Ministry defenders want to sweep these things under the rug. They only want to be judged on their doctrines; they don’t want us to look at the fruit. Well, the Barbers are fruit; my son’s friends from OKC are fruit; and the unnamed children from other places are also fruit.

May those who have the courage to write be appreciated and prayed for. May their writings stand as a testimony against those who lord it over the flock in The Local Church. There came a day in history when former children of the Roman Catholic Church took a stand against the abuse they experienced from the all-powerful clergy. Eventually, even the pope felt it necessary to apologize.

08-06-2008, 04:10 PM	#69
John Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 62	Barber’s Shop Well, I’ve noticed this discussion about James Barber and his progeny. It’s been suggested that these are extremes and maybe not “probative.” I believe that these testimonies, and others like them, must be kept in mind and not discarded when dealing with The Local Church issue. Whether or not these two sons of a foundational, tier-one elder describe an extreme of the subject or not, I don’t know. What I do know is that their experiences are not isoloated. The “rule” of their father in the home was not limited to the home. Yes, it went out to the whole of “The Church in Oklahoma City” and not in a good way. My son still periodically gets information about the people with whom he associated there in his youth. Some years back, he mentioned that he didn’t know of any former Local Church young person from OKC who wasn’t in a very bad situation. Not only were the ones he knew about not following the Lord, they were involved in everything from dealing drugs to exotic dancing. I pray that their situations have changed for the better by now. (Of course, my son didn’t know everyone’s situation.) Okay, you say, so OKC was problematic to our study. Was it an anomoly? No, many former Local Church members know something of abuse, either directly or indirectly. The Barbers certainly were in an extreme situation, but they were not the only ones. I daresay that many Local Church experiences were extreme. This forum exists just because of the extremes. Okay, you say again, that was just OKC and one of Witness Lee’s former top lieutenants. Well, I say, “How much evidence do you need?” I witnessed Benson Phillips and Ray Graver and their strong-arm tactics in Texas. They are today’s leaders. So, when we look at the Barbers and attempt to discard their written experiences and observations as an extreme, remember that their extremes are what we all experienced. Their experiences don’t just frame the edges of some philosophical argument, their pain is our pain, unless we somehow intellectually divorce ourselves from the body of Christ. I am very sure that we would have more of these same kinds of testimonies if the ones with the experiences knew where to come and weren’t too afraid or traumatized to share them. In fact, I recently heard of the abuse that another former Local Church elder regularly dished out to his family. I was genuinely shocked to hear about this person. That he would be abusive to his family was so out of character with his public persona. You may think to yourself, “Well, it didn’t affect me where I was.” Oh, really? Did you ever attend a training? Did you ever submit to the so-called vision of Christ and the Church? Are you so sure that the haughty spirit of Witness Lee did not filter down to your assembly? Witness Lee taught us how to despise others. He also taught the leaders, by example, how to lord it over others. And, by example, he also taught, at least the males, how to be abusive. Here is the bottom line for me: Local Church and Living Stream Ministry defenders want to sweep these things under the rug. They only want to be judged on their doctrines; they don’t want us to look at the fruit. Well, the Barbers are fruit; my son’s friends from OKC are fruit; and the unnamed children from other places are also fruit. May those who have the courage to write be appreciated and prayed for. May their writings stand as a testimony against those who lord it over the flock in The Local Church. There came a day in history when former children of the Roman Catholic Church took a stand against the abuse they experienced from the all-powerful clergy. Eventually, even the pope felt it necessary to apologize.