[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Here is how I understand the complete context of this statement:
3. Then UntoHim in post #139 apparently understands this to mean that WL violated the Biblical principle of Jesus is Lord. I understood it differently, that WL was the servant of the Lord, and therefore it is for the Lord to judge him, not us.

How in the world do you come up with this stuff? If you worked this hard at actually following the line of thought instead of misunderstanding on purpose, we might get somewhere. You are the one that brought up the totally irrelevant "the Biblical principle of Jesus is Lord". This was a red herring to draw attention away from the matter at hand.

So I may have misunderstood this discussion, and if so please clarify and that will be that.

As I just said, you seem to be misunderstanding on purpose - you're making a concerted effort to misstate, misrepresent and change the context, and the more I try to clarify the more you throw out red herrings.

But the question that I am asking in this thread is this: can you dismiss WL’s entire ministry because of his sins? Do the sins that WL committed poison every word that he spoke?

Personally I don't dismiss his entire ministry because of his sins - there are plenty of reasons to dismiss many of the teachings purely upon theological reasons. Of course now that the clear record of the life and times of Witness Lee and his sons have been exposed, it sure doesn't help the case of those who would make him out to be the one minister with the one ministry for the age.

First, I am not aware of any biblical basis that would make me or any other members of this forum a jury to judge any servant of the Lord. Jesus is the judge of all, not me. Jesus is Lord, and as such, He will judge his own servants. They will stand or fall based on His judgment, not mine..

So we are just supposed to swallow hook, line and sinker the claims of anybody who comes along and claims to be the one apostle, the only one oracle speaking for God on earth, the only one with "recovered" teachings and practices? Really? Not here in America. No sir. Too many brave men and woman have gave their lives so that we DON'T have to just believe somebody cause they say so. You can wait for the Judgment if you want, but my Bible tells me that not only can I judge, it's my responsibility to my family and those who may be under my influence to judge, especially apostles who call themselves apostles and are false.

My position is that there is a difference between “trying an apostle and finding him to be false” and teaching that WL’s ministry is forfeit based on his sins. I think you can try an apostle by looking at their teachings, not the same thing as looking at the person. I also think that you can look at sins and judge sins. Fair enough. But when you take the next step and say because of this man’s sins he was not a servant of the Lord I feel you have overstepped. That is not for you to say, that is for the Lord. That very act violates the Lordship of Jesus. So if this forum is, as UntoHim has stated, a jury to determine if WL was a true servant of the Lord then I don’t want any part of it.

Will you please stop saying anybody is "teaching". We are simple members of a public forum discussing and debating. Nobody has been designated as teachers here, nobody has been designated as students either. You are simply wrong about separating an apostles teachings from "the person". The apostle Paul made strong and frequent references to his manner of living. He repeatedly advised the readers of his epistles to follow him in his manner and mode of living as well as following his teachings. He also exposed and warned against other "apostles", and NOT just for their false teachings, but because they were hypocritical in their manner and mode of living.

I will listen to reasonable posts. If anyone can sway me that Christians do in fact have a NT calling to judge one another I will consider what you say carefully. I understand that we should judge the truth, and the teachings, and sin. It is that extra step that I am taking issue with.

So Witness Lee was just another "Christian". Have you been to the LSM website lately? Do you know whose name is on nearly EVERY book, tape and video? Do you remember what Witness Lee said about himself, and what the current LC leaders say about him? This is a man who held himself out to be judged. His followers are now practically screaming for the whole world to judge him. Well, they are getting their wish - at least on this forum they are.