Local Church Discussions - View Single Post - Can you dismiss WL's ministry because of his sins?

ZNPaaneah · 11-20-2011, 09:21 AM

I logged in this morning to respond to a post directed at me in another thread. While perusing the site I saw this Post #139 in “Regarding the Ground of Oneness…” by UntoHim.

“Witness Lee never broke the principle that “Jesus is Lord”, so I’m not sure why you bring this up, however whether or not he was a true servant to God is now up for review, and whether you like it or not the jury is composed of me, other members of this forum, and many other Christians who may or may not have any experience with the Local Church. My PERSONAL opinion is that Witness Lee, as an “apostle”, has been tried and found to be false.”

I did try to understand the statement in red.

Here is how I understand the complete context of this statement:

1. OBW in post #132 says “You can't get blessings and cursings from the same mouth. Or sustenance and poison from the same kitchen. If there is poison, then it is all poisoned.”
2. Unreg in 133 restates this as “WL's sins makes all of his teachings suspect or "you can't get blessing and cursing from the same mouth". And takes exception saying that all Bible teachers have sinned. And then in post #137 says “To me that Biblical principle that trumps all others is that "Jesus is Lord", not WL, not me, and who am I to judge another man's servant, to his own master he stands or falls.”
3. Then UntoHim in post #139 apparently understands this to mean that WL violated the Biblical principle of Jesus is Lord. I understood it differently, that WL was the servant of the Lord, and therefore it is for the Lord to judge him, not us.

So I may have misunderstood this discussion, and if so please clarify and that will be that. But the question that I am asking in this thread is this: can you dismiss WL’s entire ministry because of his sins? Do the sins that WL committed poison every word that he spoke?

I will share my own opinion, then sit back and listen as others lay out their case. If anyone sways me with their posts I will comment, and I do plan to read all posts on this thread.

First, I am not aware of any biblical basis that would make me or any other members of this forum a jury to judge any servant of the Lord. Jesus is the judge of all, not me. Jesus is Lord, and as such, He will judge his own servants. They will stand or fall based on His judgment, not mine. The Jewish leaders Judged Jesus ministry to be false and had him crucified. God also judged, and Jesus was resurrected. To me, anyone who wants to set himself or herself up as a jury to judge a servant of God is usurping the headship of the Lord.

My position is that there is a difference between “trying an apostle and finding him to be false” and teaching that WL’s ministry is forfeit based on his sins. I think you can try an apostle by looking at their teachings, not the same thing as looking at the person. I also think that you can look at sins and judge sins. Fair enough. But when you take the next step and say because of this man’s sins he was not a servant of the Lord I feel you have overstepped. That is not for you to say, that is for the Lord. That very act violates the Lordship of Jesus. So if this forum is, as UntoHim has stated, a jury to determine if WL was a true servant of the Lord then I don’t want any part of it.

I will listen to reasonable posts. If anyone can sway me that Christians do in fact have a NT calling to judge one another I will consider what you say carefully. I understand that we should judge the truth, and the teachings, and sin. It is that extra step that I am taking issue with.

11-20-2011, 09:21 AM	#1
ZNPaaneah Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 7,105	Can you dismiss WL's ministry because of his sins? I logged in this morning to respond to a post directed at me in another thread. While perusing the site I saw this Post #139 in “Regarding the Ground of Oneness…” by UntoHim. “Witness Lee never broke the principle that “Jesus is Lord”, so I’m not sure why you bring this up, however whether or not he was a true servant to God is now up for review, and whether you like it or not the jury is composed of me, other members of this forum, and many other Christians who may or may not have any experience with the Local Church. My PERSONAL opinion is that Witness Lee, as an “apostle”, has been tried and found to be false.” I did try to understand the statement in red. Here is how I understand the complete context of this statement: 1. OBW in post #132 says “You can't get blessings and cursings from the same mouth. Or sustenance and poison from the same kitchen. If there is poison, then it is all poisoned.” 2. Unreg in 133 restates this as “WL's sins makes all of his teachings suspect or "you can't get blessing and cursing from the same mouth". And takes exception saying that all Bible teachers have sinned. And then in post #137 says “To me that Biblical principle that trumps all others is that "Jesus is Lord", not WL, not me, and who am I to judge another man's servant, to his own master he stands or falls.” 3. Then UntoHim in post #139 apparently understands this to mean that WL violated the Biblical principle of Jesus is Lord. I understood it differently, that WL was the servant of the Lord, and therefore it is for the Lord to judge him, not us. So I may have misunderstood this discussion, and if so please clarify and that will be that. But the question that I am asking in this thread is this: can you dismiss WL’s entire ministry because of his sins? Do the sins that WL committed poison every word that he spoke? I will share my own opinion, then sit back and listen as others lay out their case. If anyone sways me with their posts I will comment, and I do plan to read all posts on this thread. First, I am not aware of any biblical basis that would make me or any other members of this forum a jury to judge any servant of the Lord. Jesus is the judge of all, not me. Jesus is Lord, and as such, He will judge his own servants. They will stand or fall based on His judgment, not mine. The Jewish leaders Judged Jesus ministry to be false and had him crucified. God also judged, and Jesus was resurrected. To me, anyone who wants to set himself or herself up as a jury to judge a servant of God is usurping the headship of the Lord. My position is that there is a difference between “trying an apostle and finding him to be false” and teaching that WL’s ministry is forfeit based on his sins. I think you can try an apostle by looking at their teachings, not the same thing as looking at the person. I also think that you can look at sins and judge sins. Fair enough. But when you take the next step and say because of this man’s sins he was not a servant of the Lord I feel you have overstepped. That is not for you to say, that is for the Lord. That very act violates the Lordship of Jesus. So if this forum is, as UntoHim has stated, a jury to determine if WL was a true servant of the Lord then I don’t want any part of it. I will listen to reasonable posts. If anyone can sway me that Christians do in fact have a NT calling to judge one another I will consider what you say carefully. I understand that we should judge the truth, and the teachings, and sin. It is that extra step that I am taking issue with.