Quote:
Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah
Fair enough, this is taken from Romans 1.
Romans
1:5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:
1:6 Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:
Verse 5 is clearly referring to his commission as an apostle, and in this context Paul says “that we also are the called of Jesus Christ”. In verse 1 Paul said he was “called to be an apostle”. In literally the same sentence he says that we also are the called of Jesus Christ.
1:8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.
The glory to Jesus is not that the faith of 11 apostles (and Paul who was not there to receive that specific word) is spoken of, but that the faith of those that receive the gospel is spoken of throughout the whole world. This is the evidence of a resurrected and ascended Lord. You can not dismiss this as a few gullible followers of one extraordinary man.
1:11 For I long to see you, that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift, to the end ye may be established;
1:12 That is, that I may be comforted together with you by the mutual faith both of you and me.
There is a mutual faith. If your interpretation is correct, then the Lord spoke to the 11 who had the faith to receive and act on that word. But according to Paul that faith is then transmitted to those that hear and it is now a “mutual faith”. How do you still distinguish between his faith and our faith?
1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek
All power is given unto the Lord for what? For salvation. Now according to Paul that promise of all power is unto every one that believeth.
Now I could go through many other places as well. Prior to this I quoted the verse in Peter that we have been given like precious faith. I also quoted the verse in Matthew that "man shall live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God". Hebrews is especially good at covering this topic, and I referred to that when I said that Jesus is the author and perfector of our faith. Galatians is another excellent book on this subject and I referred to that when I mentioned this being "a different gospel".
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I'm sorry, but none of these verses are significant concerning the meaning of the specific calling in Matthew 28. And I will admit that I am not saying that it cannot be a general statement to all, but there is evidence that it just might not be.
These verses indicate that others refer to the faith of those in Rome as they spread the gospel elsewhere. That does not give a charge to the Romans.
Being "the called of Jesus Christ" does not necessarily mean called to certain specific things. It is a general statement. This verse does not refer back to Matthew 28.
Actually, this whole passage in Romans does not say a single thing about the people Paul is speaking to preaching the gospel. Or being sent to other places. It does speak of them being established.
The same can be said about Peter. "Like precious faith" does not establish that "go into all the world" is to us — to you or me. You continually miss that I am never diminishing our calling. Just questioning whether this calling/commission is the one we received. Just like the charge to an elder is not the charge to the congregation. That does not mean that we do not have a charge. We are not the ones who equip, but the ones who are perfected for works of ministry. And what is not just "meeting" ministry and "preaching" ministry, but the whole task of living. It is much more than spiritual stuff.
Now if you actually are one of the ones called to be an elder, a teacher, an evangelist, etc., that is important and a serious charge. It bears a weight that most never have to consider. Weight such as being sure of what you are "building with" because the way you build will be the way those you build go out to do their ministry. It is what gets built into them.
In short, these passages are totally irrelevant to the discussion at hand. Do you not see that? What do you believe and why? You have not established that the specifics of Matthew 28 are ever stated as directed at everyone despite the very pointed command to the 11 (and quite possibly a few others who might have often never been left out). Your defenses are:
- Incredulity that I would think otherwise.
- Assertions about what this one statement might mean about what I think about the rest of Matthew (all speculative, and wrong).
- Passages with no plausible link to the discussion at hand.
What do you believe? Why do you believe it? Do you really consider what you believe and why you believe it?
Do you think that my position somehow diminishes the place of the "average Christian" in the realm of the Christian faith and life? Is the truth changed by whether or not I understand it the way you do, or whether it is the right understanding?
You clearly have a much better command of scripture than I do, but seem all too often to bring the most irrelevant things to bear in discussions.
My goal is to read and consider. I have no desire to destroy my faith or yours. But I am tired of simply believing everything because someone else tells me it is true. Especially when I have to reject my brain as I read words that do not clearly support the popularly held position, especially when it supports something different.
Are you afraid that if we discover that the apostles and some few others received a specific command that was pointed at them, then our part in the ongoing life of the church is somehow diminished? How can it be diminished? By your own declaration, the "gift" of apostleship may be dormant because the spread to the world in general has occurred. Why does this particular passage have to be about our general living of the gospel? Isn't there plenty in scripture that sets out our part without being linked to this one?
Does the gospel fall apart if this passage actually was very intentionally spoken only to the 11? I'm not saying that it definitely was. But if that is what actually happened, what does it change?