Quote:
Originally Posted by UntoHim
I must admit, at the start of this thread, I was more on the side of those who say there are (should be) apostles today. On the surface it appears that Ephesians 4:11 ("And He gave some apostles..") is strong evidence for this view. The statement a few verses earlier ("..And He gave gifts to men") helps to bolster this view as well. But I must bow to the realities that we are faced with in the here and now. This is to say nothing of the fact that just about everybody (in our lifetimes) who has ever said they were an apostle, or were called an apostle by others, has completely and utterly failed the test - they have been tried and found to be false. Sorry to say my dear Local Church brothers and sisters (current and former), but Witness Lee definitely falls into the "tried and found to be false" category.
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I have followed this thread from the first post and I don’t think anyone has adequately defined what the gift of apostles is. It seems to me that this is the crucial concept that must be addressed before you can come to any conclusions.
One issue we find is that apostles are also evangelists, they are also shepherds and teachers, and they are also prophets. And in fact I think that should lead us to a useful definition. I would compare an Apostle to a “Pioneer species”. This is a scientific term and I have provided a definition for those of you who are not familiar with this.
Pioneer species are species which colonize previously uncolonized land, usually leading to ecological succession. They are the first organisms to start the chain of events leading to a livable biosphere or ecosystem. Since uncolonized land may have thin, poor quality soils with few nutrients, pioneer species are often hearty plants with adaptations such as long roots, root nodes containing nitrogen-fixing bacteria, and leaves that employ transpiration. Pioneer species will die creating plant litter, and break down as 'leaf mold' after some time, making new soil for secondary succession (see below), and nutrients for small fish and aquatic plants in adjacent bodies of water.
Based on this, I would propose the following definition: Apostles are gifted Christians that can go into land where the gospel has not previously been and plant churches. Often in a situation like that it is necessary for God to assist the work with signs and wonders.
It is also important to understand that when pioneer plants go into an uncolonized land, and this leads to ecological succession, it also usually leads to the pioneer plants becoming marginalized and almost eliminated. So from this standpoint, it does seem to support the original thesis by Igzy based on the book he quoted, that we no longer need apostles.
However, nature does not work this way. When Mt. Pinatubo erupted the surrounding area was wiped out of all life. The first life to return were the pioneer species. Five times in Earth’s history we have had devastating extinction events planet wide, again life bounced back very quickly, in a large part due to the pioneer species. So this also supports the position I and others have taken that the gift of the apostles remains with us. Even if these gifted ones are dormant or marginalized, in the event of a holocaust or communist revolution, or some other event that wipes out the “Christian ecosystem” they will flourish again. All you have to do is read the history of the Christians in China during the last 70 years to realize that we have had legitimate apostles with signs and wonders.
So I do agree that the US today does not need the gift of the apostles, yet at the same time I also believe that these gifted ones are here, present, and will become extremely valuable to the Body of Christ in the event that we do need them.