[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by OBW

But it doesn't seem like we have actually arrived at any kind of conclusions. More like realized that we can't even agree on the bounds of the discussion.

This thread only started 2 1/2 weeks ago, and besides I'm not sure the goal is to have 100% consensus or any kind of firm conclusion. We are a fairly diverse group here and firm conclusions are going to be very hard to come by..and that's ok when it comes to a subject like apostles. Since our view of apostles is not a core matter of the faith, I think it's ok if we end up agreeing to disagree.

As far as "the bounds of the discussion" I think each thread is more or less self explanatory - the title of the thread gives us the bounds of the discussion. "Apostles" - We know that there were apostles appointed directly by the Lord Jesus (these we may refer to as the "original apostles"). We know that there were apostles who functioned in the first century, including those probably appointed by the original apostles. We know that there were a number of early scholars/teachers/leaders that functioned more or less as "second generation" apostles. (we can haggle over this) So we know these things. We have a firm and clear written record. Where things get murky is if true apostles (who function at least partly as the original apostles) continue on through today. I think the key is to never lose sight of what the original apostles taught and how they conducted themselves. So if somebody who claims to be, or is called by others, an apostle we are not without a way to compare and contrast.

This is not a barb to anyone. It is an observation of the whole discussion. It is disjointed because everyone is talking from their understanding of each term. We can't agree on what is an apostle in the first century.

It's disjointed because people keep sidetracking us with all sorts of unrelated issues. Of course we can agree on what is an apostle in the first century...that is if we can all agree that the New Testament is a true and complete record and has faithfully recorded for us all the pertinent who, what and where and when.