Quote:
Originally Posted by Igzy
Really? What experience have you had of apostles? Recall we are talking about apostles, not miracles in general.
I think you are totally missing my point.
I simply said, if signs are a required indication of apostles then by definition we need to have some way of knowing about an alleged apostles signs.
Why is that statement so hard to follow?
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No, my post was referring to your analogy of miracles being a uniform, and in my experience miracles are not at all like a uniform.
1. "Signs are a required indication of an apostle." [I can accept that, even I can say Amen to that. I would say that a true Apostle is a coworker of God, and at some point that should be made clear through a sign or a miracle].
2. "Then by definition we need to have some way of knowing about an alleged apostles signs." [I can also agree with this statement once we clarify who the term "we" refers to].
My issue is this. An apostle, if he is a "missionary" will be preaching the gospel to hundreds of people, perhaps thousands. These people may have not had any prior experience of Christians, or else a very limited experience. So this is really something they are brand new to. How does this person learn of the miracles? If you are talking about a coworker, I would expect they would see the miracles take place first hand. For the gospel contacts I also hope it would be first hand experience. It is not something that the servant needs to discuss, your focus should be on ministering and serving. When the Lord chooses He may provide a sign or a miracle.
For example, I read a story about George Mueller. He had said if they ever were unable to feed the kids at the orphanage he would close it down because it was evidence that God was no longer a coworker. One Sunday they came to him, said they didn't have any food, it was in the afternoon, dinner was a few hours away, they had nothing to cook, and the stores were closed. So he gathered all the serving ones together to pray. A few minutes later someone came and said there was a truck outside full of meat. The driver said that he had come to deliver it and the store was closed and the meat would go bad so the people in the town had directed him to the orphanage.
So surely, all the coworkers and serving ones were well aware of God's hand in the ministry. But do you now broadcast this? Do you send out a letter to donors? Mueller refused to do so and waited about 6 months to send out his next letter. His reason was based on a principle, he decided it would be insulting to God to ever send out letters to the supporters when they were low on funds. So, there was no way to "trumpet" this miracle, or "parade around wearing this miracle" without also revealing that they were low on funds. The story showed up in the biography years later, but far too late for anyone to decide they want to contribute to this ministry or participate in it. Let people come to the ministry out of a burden to serve, not out of the hope to see Jesus walk across their swimming pool.
The road that leads to life is a narrow way and few there be that find it. If you put miracles on the servant like a purple robe you make it too easy for the unbelievers and fleshly to find this way. When they were deciding to crucify Jesus they said that there was no prophecy of any prophet coming out of Nazareth. Even these learned Bible scholars were unaware that Jesus was born in Bethlehem, they were unaware that wise men from the East had come giving him gifts after seeing his star, they were unaware that as a result of this thousands of kids were killed. No doubt these events were part of their relatively recent history, yet Jesus never went around saying that He was that kid. He never told anyone that Herod himself had wanted to kill Jesus as a baby.
This is why I do not like the analogy of a policeman's uniform.