[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

ZNP,
Interesting correlation you make here.
If you are referring to the two witnesses in Revelation 11 then I think they could more accurately be designated as prophets (cf:"and they will prophesy for twelve hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth." REV 11:3. The term "apostles" is used in Revelation several times and if these two "witnesses" are going to be apostles I think the term would have been used here as well.

Your definition for apostle covered three criteria: they saw the Lord (these two witnesses met the Lord on top of the mtn and this is recorded in the gospels), they received their mission directly from the Lord (these two have received their mission directly from the Lord) and their audience was bigger than any one sect (these are speaking to the entire earth).

I gave a definition that no one has really disputed saying that an evangelist could be an apostle as well if their preaching was not merely to save souls but to also raise up a church. I also felt that a teacher could be an apostle as in the case of Martin Luther if the teaching unlocked truths to the entire body rather than teaching truths that the Body is aware of but perhaps new believers weren't.

OBW gave a number of possible definitions, one was that a missionary could be considered an apostle.

However, no one has said that an Apostle does not prophesy. On the contrary we all have agreed that the basic root is "sent one". These two are clearly "sent ones". The idea of an appointed mission from the Lord Jesus has been used by several, and again these two fulfill that point. Paul was a prophet, and he was an Apostle. John was a prophet and he was an apostle.

To prophesy means to speak for God. I see no contradiction at all in considering these two analogous to apostles based on all of the previously given definitions. To now come up with a new definition is akin to moving the goal posts.

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Besides you are jumping ahead of us here all the way to the end times.

What?! Do you know something we don't? Please if you know when the end time is tell us. Why do you keep this to yourself? The Lord Jesus didn't know, Paul didn't know, but apparently you do?

Originally Posted by UntoHim

We know for sure WHO WERE apostles (those appointed directly by the Lord Jesus), the task for us now may be to agree on who was/is an apostles in the subsequent time after the first century up to today.

Perhaps I have not been following the thread correctly. I thought Ohio presented a long list of apostles based on the NT record and everyone quibbled over the list. As a result they started giving their own definitions. Yes we know for sure that there were 12 "apostles" and Paul as well. We also know for sure that Apostle was listed as one of the gifts given to man along with evagelists and pastors and teachers. No one has suggested that the other gifts ended with the 12 (and Paul also) but for some reason they have tried to distinguish with the term apostle even though it certainly was never stated by Paul. As a result this discussion veered into Igzy and others asking who we thought other apostles since the time of John might be. In response I said that the 2 witnesses would be. I think I have been following the thread quite accurately.

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Some people consider a number of the early "Church Fathers" to be apostles ...

One thing you mentioned really caught my attention:

“discern the fraud from the genuine article”… Now THIS is more applicable to where we are today. The fact is, that just as we know the “genuine article” of our salvation – what is recorded for us in the Bible: “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life” - so too we can know the “genuine article” of an apostle. I won’t take the time here, and others have already laid out some of the biblical descriptions of an apostle, suffice it to say that we have not been left in the dark when it comes to this matter.

Finally, I’m going to repeat some of the things that were quotes from other posters (again)

One of the last time “apostles” is mentioned in the NT is in Revelation 2:2 – “that you have tested those who claim to be apostles but are not, and have found them false.” I like how the NIV has translated this part. Most translations render it “who call themselves apostles” – a closer rendering of the Greek word here is “claim to be”. Of course the determinative thing is at the end - “and have found them false”. How did these believers in Ephesus find these people who claimed to be an apostle as false? My best guess would be that they were NOT teaching and preaching what was being taught and preached by the original apostles. These are referred to as “the apostles teachings” several times in Acts. So it seems to me one of the best ways to find out whether or not somebody is an apostle is to compare and contract what they preach and teach with what is actually taught in the New Testament.

I was the one who first quoted this verse, if I remember correctly (if not, sorry), either way I have quoted this verse repeatedly. My point is simple, why would you even have to examine them if the NT teaching was that after the 12 apostles there were no more. The very fact that they were taking these claims seriously enough to examine them and then being commended by the Lord in this work tells me that there is no NT teaching that the gift of apostles ended with the 12 (plus Paul).