[ZNPaaneah]

Ephesians 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

1. The gift of apostles is listed with prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers. Unless you want to say that there haven’t been anymore of any of these gifts since the days of the Apostle John I see nothing from these verses to suggest that the gift of Apostles is any different from the other gifts.

2. The gifts listed in verse 11 are given for the perfecting of the saints. Unless you want to say that the saints were perfected back in the time of the Apostle John why would you think the Body is no longer in need of Apostles?

3. The gifts are for the work of the ministry. Did this work cease at the time of the Apostle John? If not, why would the apostles no longer be given?

4. The gifts are for the building up of the Body of Christ. Did the building up of the Body of Christ cease after the Apostle John? If not, why would the apostles no longer be given since that was the purpose for which they were given.

5. Now it seems to me that verse 13 kind of explains where exactly we are headed: until we all arrive at the oneness of the faith (Paul may have arrived at this already, but the goal was for all of us to arrive, I think we are all in agreement that we certainly have not all arrived at this oneness yet).

When I read this verse the gift of apostles is put right next to the gift of pastors. No one is arguing that we no longer have pastors. I don’t see the slightest indication from these verses that the gift of the Apostles only refers to those that saw Jesus or who wrote scripture.

I have read the many lengthy posts. I understand that Christian history is full of false apostles, super apostles, false Christs, and false prophets. To me you can’t have a forgery without the real thing. So whereas the tendency seems to be to shy away from the term due to its misuse, I think the more appropriate response is to fight the pressure. (In football, when you play defense you are taught to fight the pressure, if they are pushing you one way you want to go the other.) This is how I understand Revelation 2:2 “I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:”. Why would you need to test and examine those that say they are apostles in order to find them liars if the NT taught that the Apostles only referred to those that wrote scripture or that saw Jesus? It seems to me that this wasn’t simply a matter of filling out a checklist, but was a difficult and arduous process and the Lord is commending the saints for doing this.

Also, we know at the end of the age the Lord will send the 2 witnesses. Likewise we know that there will be an antichrist and a false prophet. It seems to me that discerning between a forgery and the real thing will be a very valuable skill that all Christians need to know. So I don’t buy the idea that this is a useless discussion or that it is merely a matter of titles or semantics.